Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Cameron MacDonald]

I believe Minh Doan made the decision to go with GC Strategies because of the fact that he had been told he could not use Deloitte. Deloitte was in a timeout penalty box, so to speak.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who told him they were in the penalty box?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Answer very, very briefly.

[Cameron MacDonald]

My understanding is that this came from above.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can you clarify what you mean by “above”?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but that's your time, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Powlowski is next, please.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. MacDonald, you said that you felt threatened by Mr. Doan. What was the threat?

[Cameron MacDonald]

First of all, there was the threat of employment. I had moved on to Health Canada. I had already been gone from the project for a year and a half.

In my opening statement, I think I told the committee that when I left, I delivered a costing, and it was $6.3 million. Now, all of a sudden, in the news and everything else, they were talking about $55 million. Mr. Doan was talking about people getting fired.

I also didn't want my name to come out at this committee. I worked really, really hard during the pandemic, and the thought of being blamed for something that people were painting as bad when we did everything we could to respond during the pandemic.... The whole thing was just a horrible interaction.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

It seems that the horrible interaction continues with this committee. I'm not normally on this committee, and the committees I'm on aren't quite this kind of inquisitorial process.

In looking at the fairness of this, some people are given five minutes to ask a question, but you're given one minute to respond. It's your reputation that's at stake here, so I'm giving you the time to respond to some of the questions that perhaps you didn't have time to respond to.

I think specifically you were referring to the Globe and Mail article about the RCMP probe. You had your big sheet of paper about the timelines and what was wrong. Do you want to take a bit of time to expand on some of those things that you think they got wrong?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Sure. I guess the reason I did a timeline that was linear was that when I read the article, there were so many dates that kept popping up, and sometimes they had the year and sometimes they didn't have the year.

I feel that I have been misrepresented by Botler as having pressured them to work with Kristian Firth. They were introduced to me by Kristian Firth. They went around town presenting together as partners. They presented to my VP without my being there, as partners. My VP responded, calling them “the team”.

I feel attacked after the fact, from a Botler perspective, even with Mr. Utano...the email where they're saying that they made these allegations. You guys will get a copy of it. I don't understand why Botler didn't provide a copy to the committee when they started off, because any normal, common-sense person who reads this email will know there are no allegations. They certainly didn't mention me on September 27. Then, all of a sudden, on Twitter, they're dropping all of these audio clips that are clearly edited. They're clearly put together in a way that provides anybody who listens to them with a focus that just doesn't exist.

From my vantage point, Mr. Chair and members of this committee, I don't think Botler was treated unfairly.

I'll make one final point, because you gave me the time and I really appreciate it. I've been trying to make it a couple of times.

When the Crown has a contract with anybody, there's a task authorization. I provided it in my package, and I think it's really important for members to understand this. What Botler did.... The contract was for a feasibility study in six parts. In other words, we're paying for somebody to refurbish the kitchen. They went out back and built a swimming pool, a jungle gym and a garage and wanted to charge the federal government hundreds of thousands of dollars for doing it. The Crown wouldn't pay for that. The Crown pays for what's in the contract.

If people went through the ATIP and read all the documents, they would see that it talks about a discovery plan, a feasibility study, a fit-gap analysis report, a pilot plan and metrics and an executive summary. Nowhere in there does it say “a pilot”. It's a chatbot. Why would the federal government ever pay $26 million a year for a chatbot?

I'll stop there, Mr. Chair.

I take my reputation seriously. I have worked awfully hard to earn one, and I feel that it's been sullied by some of the things that have been said at this committee, in the news and by Botler themselves.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

If I have any time remaining, Mr. Utano, I give you the same opportunity to respond to anything that you yet haven't had a chance to respond to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have about 45 seconds.

[Antonio Utano]

Thank you. I'll be real quick.

I take allegations very seriously. If they are presented to me, I will action them. That means that on September 27 there were no allegations. I just want to read the reply from Ms. Dutt. She wrote:

Good afternoon Diane,

Thank you so much for your prompt action and response, it is much appreciated!

Please accept my sincerest apologies for all of this inconvenience to yourself and the CBSA, you have all been nothing short of amazing to work with, and I am so sorry that it had to come to this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

Next, we have Mrs. Vignola for two and half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Utano, could you tell me in a few seconds whether the Government of Canada has taken the necessary measures to ensure that there are people in the public service who can develop applications?

[Antonio Utano]

My priority was always and continues to be to develop our resources and employees. Just before the beginning of the pandemic that was the intention of starting small with a team called a mobile centre of excellence, bringing in the resources not to do but to teach and learn.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Do we now have the resources to develop applications?

[Antonio Utano]

It actually takes many years to develop the skills needed to develop this type of software.

The ArriveCAN application was very complicated.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, listening to you speak, I get the impression that there is a certain culture of silence, harassment and intimidation within the Canada Border Services Agency. Am I wrong?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I'll start answering, and Mr. Utano will follow.

You're right to a certain extent. I don't think it's always very serious, but when it happens, people don't necessarily have a door to knock on to talk to someone and receive help. In our case, it is clear that there was some information, but no one was there for the two of us.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Is that common?

[Antonio Utano]

It only happened once. In my career, these are the first types of events that have damaged my character, my integrity and my trust in some leadership. I don't know what the right response is, if it's frequent or not. I've never had this experience.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have a number of other questions to ask you, but I only have six seconds left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.

Mr. Johns, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. MacDonald, do you have any idea why Deloitte was in the penalty box?