Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Cameron MacDonald]

My understanding from the discussion was that there was a big project called CARM, something about risk management. It was the CBSA assessment and revenue management project. I believe it was worth about $350 million or so, and it wasn't going well at the time.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What does that mean?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I believe it was not on time and not on budget in terms of where the project milestones were supposed to be. The company had been put on time out. No work was to be done, even though there was a global pandemic.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Doan threatened you. Can you clarify exactly why he would threaten you, and what the threat was?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I got a phone call on, I think it was the 27th, from a member of his inner circle. I can provide her name and information to corroborate this. She told me that Kelly Belanger had told her not to call me. Minh had been making comments, saying I was the one who had made the decision that it would be GC Strategies, even though the entire team, which was helping to brief Minh Doan all the way, had not said that.

When I talked to Minh Doan the next day, he had already asked me to help him with the committee. This is why it was a bit jarring for me. He was pretty upset. At times, he was almost crying. At times, he was almost yelling. He basically said that somebody's head was going to be on a platter. He started by saying it was between him and Jonathan. He then quickly switched it, saying that if he was asked, he was going to say it was I who had made the decision.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

He made the decision. Is it correct that he made the decision?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes, he made the decision. I brought him two options. He took one away and told me to go, and I went. He knew it was GC Strategies—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

He came to our committee and said it wasn't he who had made the decision.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Johns and honourable members of this committee, I have members of my team who came here to support me. If the CBSA had even just asked my team, they would have known who made the decision. It was clear. Everybody in government knows the DG wouldn't have made a decision like that.

Mr. Doan.... I don't know. He was the one who got a non-advertised appointment. I competed successfully in an open competition for my EX-4. When Mr. Doan was asked that question, he answered it a bit differently. You'll have to ask him how he was promoted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, both.

Mr. Genuis, I understand that you're starting off.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I suspect there will be general agreement of this committee, in light of the testimony we heard today, to ask Mr. Doan to come back as soon as possible, for a full two hours, by himself.

Is there agreement on that point?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's perfect, thank you very much.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I think we'd do that probably as soon as possible, Chair, but we give you that discretion as always.

Mr. MacDonald, I think it's very important that you said that Mr. Doan heard “from above” that Deloitte was in the “penalty box” and that is why GC Strategies was selected. That phrase does include some euphemisms that I want clarity on, though.

What precisely do you mean by “from above”?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Doan was the vice-president and CIO of the CBSA. There was only one person who was above him.

My understanding is that all the VPs had been told that they could not work with Deloitte until the current project was back on track.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Then above him within the public service would have been the president. Above that is the political level, so....

[Cameron MacDonald]

I did not understand it to be a political decision. If you're going to be calling Minh Doan, I'm sure you can ask him what he meant.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Would anyone at the political level have been involved in these discussions, as far as you know?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Not as far as I know—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You weren't in rooms where they were.

[Cameron MacDonald]

For ArriveCAN, I was in one meeting with the minister's office. They asked me if it was secure and if it was scalable, to which I answered in the affirmative. That was only one meeting.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

At what stage in the process was that meeting?

[Cameron MacDonald]

It was very early, like at the very beginning.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Was that before or after GC Strategies was selected?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I don't know that GC Strategies was selected at the time. It would have probably been concurrently, when we were kind of going.... GC Strategies was not brought up. No contracting was brought up.

They just wanted to make sure it was secure, because we were going to be collecting—