Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The PBO confirmed that a cut of 4.2% to outsourcing would cover the whole cost of extending the CEBA loan for a year, which would help support 250,000 businesses.

We know that some of the contractors who are getting consulting contracts don't even have any experience or expertise in tech. They're getting IT contracts, Minister, and they're taking between 15%-30% commission. They then subcontract. Those subcontractors are taking a commission. They're subcontracting to other contractors who also might be taking a commission. In fact, your departmental officials confirmed that there is actually no cap on commissions.

I'll help you find the 4.2% cut that's needed to help those businesses. Will you put a limit on all commissions for outsourcing contracts to these expensive highly paid consultants?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

There are two pieces to that, as well: first, the dollar impact, and second, the value of that impact.

You will most likely know that we are reducing the contractual value of professional services by 15%, which will generate economies of about $7 billion over the next five years, and $1.7 billion ongoing thereafter. That is going to enable us to refocus some of those dollars on the places and uses you mentioned, including continuing to support small and medium-sized—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I can't let you run out my whole two and a half minutes.

I'm asking you whether you will put a limit on commissions and extend the CEBA loan for small businesses. This is a simple choice: small businesses over highly paid consultants, a lot of whom don't even have expertise.

I'm going to Phoenix.

The Conservatives brought in Phoenix. It was expected to save $80 million. Your government carried forward with it. My last recollection is that it has cost Canadians $2.3 billion. I also know you're going after people who were overpaid, instead of making sure people who were underpaid—people who've done the work—and who are losing their houses....

I think you need to get your priorities in order and make sure people who did their work are getting paid.

When are you going to fix this? How much has it actually cost so far?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As you implicitly suggest, it is totally unacceptable that public servants are not paid on time and in the right manner. There are still many of them now, in 2023, despite the fact that we have invested significant dollars—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

How much have you spent?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

—over the last seven years to correct the failure of Phoenix.

It is not finished. We need to continue addressing the legitimate needs and expectations of public servants who work very hard every day to serve Canadians. That's why we're going to continue. We are hiring more compensation advisers in the contexts in which we need more of them. We are automating a lot of the processes. We are making it—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Are you outsourcing them? It sounds like this whole thing is outsourcing gone wrong.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, gentlemen.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Duclos, after eight years, one of the biggest problems we see with this NDP-Liberal government is that, while everything is broken, nobody ever takes responsibility. You're the Minister of Public Services and Procurement of Canada. That means your responsibilities include procurement.

I want to ask you this again: Who is the person responsible for the decision to use GC Strategies and procure, through them, the ArriveCAN app?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Well, I've tried to answer before, but I was cut off.

I'll turn to Deputy Minister Reza to provide the answer. Perhaps she'll have more luck.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I want to hear from you, Minister. You're the minister responsible. I'll give you the time. I want you to answer the question.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

No, I'll invite Deputy Minister Reza, because she might be more fortunate than I was, earlier.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

No, I would like to hear the minister who is supposed to be responsible for procurement tell us who is responsible for the decision to procure the ArriveCAN app.

I want to hear from the minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Well, I can provide information on what ArriveCAN did, so you—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's not what the question is, Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Well, you said the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The question is this: Who is responsible for the decision?

Your title, if I understand correctly, is Minister of Public Services and Procurement of Canada. This was a procurement of $54 million. It was procured through a two-person company that did no IT work and subcontracted the work. You're responsible, I think, for providing answers to this committee regarding procurement.

Can you tell this committee who was responsible for the decision to procure through GC Strategies?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

What you just said is inaccurate. You said that $54 million was granted to a particular firm. ArriveCAN—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I wasn't born yesterday. Who was responsible for the decision?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Let me continue.

ArriveCAN—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who was responsible for the decision, Minister?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

—is associated with 14 different outcomes, the first of which indeed cost $80,000—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Who was responsible for the decision?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Okay.

Am I allowed to continue—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'll ask you to bring the witness to order. He has an obligation to answer a question like any other citizen who appears before this committee.