Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Mr. Page, who is here with me, knows all the details and can tell you more about them.

I can briefly say that there are two stages. The first involves a shipyard being recognized as a member of the national shipbuilding strategy. That stage requires upgrades to the yards. The same conditions were applied to the three shipyards. They received assistance from their respective provinces to carry out the upgrades as soon as they were integrated into the strategy.

In terms of Irving's funding, Mr. Page can explain to you in detail what the second step is. It was necessary to speed up construction of the surface combatants.

[Simon Page, Assistant Deputy Minister, Defence and Marine Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you very much for the question.

As the minister said, the Irving shipyard is voluntarily investing, with its own funds and provincial funds, to achieve a target state.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All the shipyards are doing that.

Aren't they?

[Simon Page]

They are, yes.

Then there was a specific investment to support the surface combatant project. It's not the same ship anymore. The project is no longer the same as the one requested at the outset.

In terms of design, at the beginning of the strategy, it was a ship weighing about 6,500 to 6,800 tonnes, of a given complexity. That complexity and the density of the vessel have increased. We're now talking about a ship weighing close to 9,000 tonnes. So the investment was made to carry out the surface combatant project. The project required specific milestones and investments in the shipyard to accelerate its completion.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Given that the government had miscalculated the tonnage of the ship, it will have to pay the $50 million needed to upgrade the shacks and the Irving shipyard.

Did I understand correctly?

[Simon Page]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I wouldn't say it was a miscalculation. Some assumptions were made at the outset. When the shipyards signed their strategy and their framework agreements, we didn't know what the surface combatant's specifications would be.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

If there are changes of the same kind at the Seaspan and Davie shipyards, with which you have signed framework agreements, it's possible that there will be grey areas like the ones that came up at Irving.

If they have the same grey areas, can we expect the government to be fair in terms of its grants and funding for the Seaspan and Davie shipyards?

Did Irving get special treatment?

[Simon Page]

Irving didn't get special treatment.

Each application will be processed on a case-by-case basis. Once the yards have achieved their target state, further investment is possible.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Does the funding for the P‑8 Poseidon, which is replacing the CP‑140 Auroras, include the infrastructure needed to accommodate the P‑8 Poseidon, particularly the hangars?

If so, how much would that infrastructure cost and where would it be located?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I will turn it over to Mr. Page, since he is in the best position to answer the question.

[Simon Page]

Thank you very much for the question.

The Canadian multimission aircraft project includes several cost elements, including infrastructure costs. We often tend to think that infrastructure costs are only related to buildings, but it's much more complex.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay, but how much will it cost and where would that infrastructure be located?

[Simon Page]

I don't have the numbers on hand. You would need to check with the Department of Defence if you want to know exactly how much of their costs go to infrastructure.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Could you ask them to send us that data in writing, please?

[Simon Page]

I certainly will.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Minister, and your team for being here.

Minister, you just talked about selling public lands and buildings for housing. It's something I've heard your government speak about recently. We saw what happened in Ontario with the Greenbelt and the Conservatives there.

We've seen that happen with former B.C. Liberals in the province of British Columbia. Public lands are sold, ending up with profits for a handful of developers. They don't end up turning it into affordable housing.

I put forward a motion at this committee, that was supported unanimously, to ensure that public lands that belong in public hands are accessible for affordable housing, and to look at guidelines and safeguards to ensure that what happened in Ontario doesn't happen again.

Are you working on guidelines to make sure that the same thing doesn't happen? I'm concerned that you're going to unload buildings and lands, and they're going to end up profiting a handful of developers and not be designated purely for affordable housing. What certainties do you have for Canadians that this is not what's going to happen?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a great question. Let me answer it in two parts. The first is about the plan, and the second is a concrete example of what that plan is leading to.

The plan is indeed to make available those lands and buildings, often located in the centres of cities—like in Ottawa or in other larger cities—where we know that we want to work with the municipalities to revitalize the downtown areas so that we can bring people closer to public transit, schools and public services. That involves, in many cases, working with non-profit housing providers, social housing providers, community organizations and municipalities. Those lands and buildings are provided to them in different ways at a cost that makes them able to provide affordable housing units for people who need them.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm just looking for certainty. I want certainty that it's not going to end up being some developer-driven model. That's what we're looking for.

I want to know, are you providing guidelines to make sure that this doesn't happen?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

For instance, the Canada Lands Company, which is leading the development of the 28,000 units I mentioned earlier, has a minimum of 20% of the units being affordable.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I don't think that's good enough. Public lands belong in public hands.

Are you giving them direction to provide guidelines so that all building and lands are going to be for affordable housing?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You have a mixed setting with mixed use and mixed people. Some of them may not need affordable homes. Others will need affordable homes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We've seen that hybrid model. That was cut out of what the Greenbelt was supposed to be.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The example I was going to provide is very nearby. It's called Wateridge Village, just a few kilometres away here in Ottawa. If you visit it, you'll see that there are homes for veterans and for formerly homeless Canadians, for single parents and for people who may be in the middle class or in conditions that would enable them to pay for higher rents or prices.