Health Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

Madame Demers.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, and thank you for coming today. I was pleased to hear your presentations.

I listened to all our witnesses, and I have many questions, particularly with respect to motives regarding taxes. I paid particular attention to Mr. Jeffrey, whose brief I found very interesting.

I am sure you are familiar with the Canada Food Guide. A new addition of the guide will be coming out in April 2007. However, in the last two weeks, some witnesses have told us that they did not think that the guide met the criteria of a good diet that would allow people to resist certain diseases and that more importance was attached to the package than to its content.

Do you share these views? In other words, do you think that the new version of the Canada Food Guide will help prevent child obesity?

[Bill Jeffery]

My impression is that Canada's Food Guide is still under development, but the last version I saw in March or April of this year didn't impress me.

The science is pretty clear about the basic message concerning diet-related disease. Most Canadians should consume fewer calories; more whole grains, fruits, and vegetables; and less saturated and trans fats, sodium, and that sort of thing.

My impression from the draft guide was that it would certainly prompt Canadians to consume fewer whole grains and probably lead to an increase in the consumption of meat and dairy fat. Health Canada might have got off on the wrong foot when it appointed an advisory group that, quite frankly, had too many conflicts of interest and not enough nutrition science expertise to adequately evaluate the science.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

You stated that an advisory group was established for the purposes of producing this new guide and that it was not sufficiently familiar with the issues?

[Bill Jeffery]

The panel consisted of 12 people: four of them either consulted for or worked for the food industry; four were public health nutritionists from very small communities--two of them with less than 15,000 people--and they had busy full-time jobs. They didn't come from organizations that had the kinds of institutional resources to support them in their deliberations. A couple of the other members, quite frankly, had very little nutrition science expertise.

I know there were a couple of independent nutrition groups—not our group but others—from Ontario and Quebec that offered recommendations for nominations for the panel, and they were ignored. These were people, I understand, with advanced degrees in nutrition science.

We'll see what comes out of it. I understand it's to be released at the beginning of 2007, but I hope it undergoes more changes.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Lessard, my next question is for you.

I would like to know why you do not have the same sources of information as Mr. Cash, Mr. Jeffery and Mr. Clark. They have access to information that appears to confirm that taxing high-fat products can be beneficial.

I read that England put a 17% tax on high-fat products, which led to a decrease in risks related to death and heart disease. Do you not have the same data that would allow you to act immediately on those same products?

[Alex Lessard]

The department is certainly open to reviewing all recommendations that the committee puts in its report.

I am not able to tell you whether or not we have the necessary data to allow us to act immediately, but far be it for me to claim that we do not have that data. We would have to look at that issue.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Clark, the government recently made budget cuts in the volunteer sector, which led to a certain number of community and volunteer organizations shutting down. Earlier you mentioned the importance of societal and organizational support for people who do not have a sufficient income to allow them to eat well and have a healthy diet.

Several of these organizations were soup kitchens that gave poor people the opportunity to purchase healthier food and to cook together. These organizations were involved in many areas.

Do you think the government should re-assess its cuts based on the needs of poor people?

[Dr. J. Stephen Clark]

All I can say is that my results show that as the price of food falls, people try to make healthier choices because they can afford to make healthier choices. Within the food groups the high-fat foods are the cheapest, so if you reduce the price of food, they can buy the healthier, higher-priced foods. It's also the same in an income way. If incomes increase they can afford to buy the healthier foods, so they do that and reduce the amount of fat.

Our results are showing that consumers are very purposeful, when prices and incomes change, in trying to make themselves healthier. If there is any issue—and once again I don't know this for sure—it just tends to be that for some reason lower-fat, healthier foods tend to be more expensive. That could be a price thing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fletcher, five minutes.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start off with two questions, which will probably take up all of my time.

My first question deals with first nations. Ms. Keeper and I are from the great province of Manitoba, which has a large aboriginal population. Many of the aboriginal communities are remote, and the challenge is to get affordable, healthy food to these locations. There is also seasonal variability and so on. I wonder if any of the panellists are aware of any economic models that exist in Canada or other jurisdictions that could help us address the high cost of healthy foods in first nation communities.

Secondly, again looking at other jurisdictions, are there other innovative or creative economic incentives or disincentives outside the tax system that other countries have employed?

[Dr. Sean B. Cash]

On the first question, certainly food accessibility is a huge issue. In the context of fat taxes and other food taxes, if you're going to highlight certain foods for special taxation and not provide access to the substitutes that you want to encourage, you're not going to be able to accomplish anything. If you double the price of an unhealthy food item, that's a big price change, but if the alternatives don't exist in a remote community, then you still won't necessarily have the desirable substitutions that you want to see.

So even within the context of what many of the speakers have been talking to today, certainly the point you raise is a very valid and salient one for these communities.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

What's the solution?

[Dr. Sean B. Cash]

One thing that is not utilized very much in Canada--this ties into some of what I brought up earlier, about existing programs that might support agricultural production--is the direct provision of food aid. That is not universally popular because of concerns that it might carry stigma for recipients. However, if you're thinking of interventions on a community-wide basis, where there might be a role or an ability for a government or a third party to purchase food items to be provided to remote communities, that could be done in a way that would also promote the producers' interests and perhaps could replace other programs that currently work by affecting food prices. That might be a win-win situation.

Again, on a community level, perhaps it would not involve the same sort of stigma carried by the idea of buying government cheese, or by the idea of food stamps in other countries.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Perhaps Ms. Keeper would like to expand on her experience in that area.

But on the second question, the other jurisdictions...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

No takers.

Do you have any other questions?

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

No, I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

Ms. Black, you have five minutes.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all the witnesses for coming today. It's been interesting to hear your presentations, and I appreciate the time you took to share your expertise with us.

To the officials from the department, I'm just wondering about the issue of the GST. We do tax junk food higher, I think, through the GST, if you're getting small quantities. Is that right?

[Geoff Trueman]

Yes. Certain prepared and prepackaged foods are subject to the GST, whereas basic groceries are not.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm wondering if any studies have ever been done on the impact of the tax. Has it been evaluated in terms of its impact on the consumption of those foods?

[Geoff Trueman]

No. Generally speaking, the GST is reported at a very aggregate or macroeconomic level. It's not possible to track, for example, the amount of GST collected on donuts or fast food, other than working from broad economic data.

Again, the general principle is simply that as a tax, a value-added tax of broad application, an exemption was carved out for basic groceries--

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

After a fight, actually.

[Geoff Trueman]

--exactly, yes--to ensure access to basic food for all Canadians.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I think all Canadians know we have an epidemic on our hands. The rising weight of children is very worrying. Lack of exercise and all of these things play together. I would like to hear from Mr. Clark, Mr. Cash, or Mr. Jeffery on whether or not they have specific recommendations to this committee.

You talked about incentives and disincentives, but pretend for a minute that you're in government now and you have the opportunity to put forward a concrete proposal to the government. Could you tell me, each of you, what that proposal would be, please?