Health Committee on Nov. 16th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Okay, Ms. Lowry and Ms. O'Brien, could you start? Then could we have Dr. Liu or Dr. Sherman continue?

[Christine Lowry]

Thank you very much.

I understand your concern, and I understand the concerns of the committee in everything we've heard today. I can assure you we're committed to working on all of the nutrients of concern and the new science coming forward on elements in the diet to help Canadians live better lives.

As I mentioned, we've had a number of investments and renovations in our products to continually make them healthier for Canadians and to respond to where public health science is going. We've done this in the past, and we'll continue to do it in the future. We are a company that is very much on a journey of improving the nutrition credentials of our products.

We identified one product in particular, and we identified very early that we needed to work on reducing that sodium level. We have that plan in place. We've reduced sodium in other products in past years, and we kept silent on it. We've made many other increases in the nutrition credentials of our products. We do that routinely; it's just part of our plan. There generally isn't a lot of noise that we make about it, because it's something we're committed to.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Why not do it across the board? How do you explain the higher sodium content in a particular Canadian product when the identical product is lower in other countries?

[Christine Lowry]

In that particular product we tried different methods of changing it and now we think we've found a solution that's suitable to the palate of Canadians.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Is our palate different from the Americans' palate?

[Christine Lowry]

I think you heard there are geographical differences, cultural differences, and there are some differences in palate. Nonetheless, we don't want to rely on that. We want to be able to bring that palate down, and we're going to do that gradually.

We've started that, and we're committed to it. We've made changes in sodium content in some of our products already, and we have a program in place to invest in bringing that sodium down. I can tell you, with full commitment, that's what the company has done, in the same way as we've done it with trans fat. We've also looked at nutrition innovations that we're adding to brands. We have a lot of people committed to improving the products, and we'll continue to do that.

As I said before, we'll continue to invest in education so when consumers are looking at that side panel they know the absolute amount of sodium in the product and what percentage that is of the current DV. If the DV changes, then again, it's communicating to consumers so they're informed and they make those better choices.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Would you have voluntarily reduced your trans fats if there had been no public exposure of the serious problems and outcry from Parliament? If it had just gone on and you knew all the health stats, would you on your own, without any pressure from government, have done that?

[Christine Lowry]

Absolutely, because we are a company that takes a look at the science, that looks at public health globally. We have a worldwide commitment to--

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Knowing the health consequences of sodium, could you commit to the Canadian public today that you're prepared to do much more than a hit and miss, reducing the odd product here and there, and having international differences? Could you commit to doing something much more definitive so we don't have to have mandatory regulations?

[Christine Lowry]

In my previous comments, I said we did commit to getting to a level of 200 milligrams. We're very eager to see what the Sodium Working Group takes a look at, what their guidelines will be, because we know the sodium consumed right now from the cereal category is only 3%. So we'll take a look at the recommendations when we meet with the Sodium Working Group in a couple of weeks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Lowry.

Thank you, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

We'll now go to Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

I find this conversation extremely interesting. It is something I think Canadians need to become much more aware of. I must say, though, I'm very proud of our government and our history of taking the health of Canadians seriously. I know we've moved on trans fats. For years sodium was ignored by previous governments, and we know we need to take action on that. I know we got started with the Sodium Working Group in 2007. I think you met for the first time in 2008, so things are moving along.

Academics, why should sodium be a priority for government action at this time?

[Dr. Peter Liu]

I can start, and Phil can follow.

In terms of the impact of reducing sodium from a health point of view, it's interesting if you look globally at some of the factors that are producing complications. One, for example, is malnutrition worldwide; that's not a problem in Canada. But the other aspect is high blood pressure. One in four of us in this room has high blood pressure, and as we get older the incidence gets higher. If you can reduce sodium, about one-third of us who have high blood pressure can have normal blood pressure. You may not even need to be treated with medication.

People have done some comparisons. For example, comparing to trans fats, comparing to other types of policy changes, if the sodium reduction impact is fully implemented, it's about three to four times higher than many of the other strategies. So I think this is part of the reason that sodium reduction is a very worthwhile venture to be investing time and effort in.

[Dr. Philip M. Sherman]

I'm the director of the Institute of Nutrition. Nutrition encompasses lots of healthy foods, and it's clear that sodium is one major player, in that altering sodium content could have an impact on the health of Canadians. I think that's why it's been targeted among a series of potential alternative considerations. It's certainly a priority, but not the only priority, for healthy food and healthy eating for Canadians.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

You mention the importance of research, and I am very much in favour of research. What kind of research is still required? It seems there's a lot of research in lowering these levels. What else do we need to know?

You mentioned the importance of following through, making sure you get the desired results after you implement a policy or some recommendations.

[Dr. Philip M. Sherman]

That's a very important question and one we are asking ourselves as a research community. That is the focus of the workshop in January, so I don't want to prejudge. We're going to have a group of Canadian experts as well as some selected international experts speak on this, because there are gaps in knowledge that it would be helpful to fill out.

If there is an adjustment in salt content in the processed foods Canadians eat, we need to monitor that impact. You heard urinary sodium mentioned as a way to do that. It's not clear that all experts think that's the best monitor; maybe we should use another marker. We need to have that in place so when there is an adjustment in dietary salt we can come back to you all and say what it did or didn't do for the health of Canadians. Here's how it altered total body salt, because as you heard, sometimes you are well-intentioned in trying to adjust the salt intake, yet people take in salt in other ways. So you need to see that the reduction in salt in processed foods is evidenced by a reduction of salt in the body and reduction of blood pressure and coronary artery disease. So we need to have things put in place, which we intend to do, to monitor those impacts.

[Dr. Peter Liu]

From a food sciences point of view, people are interested in salt substitutes. The challenge is to find which salt substitutes are safe and which ones can be used in food processing. The other aspect that we are promoting, at both the Sodium Working Group and the CIHR, is the so-called knowledge translation. We are trying to reach out to the public. We are looking for the best vehicles to get the public energized in this partnership. We needed to innovate in our messaging and our evaluation techniques. We want to discover which strategy is the most effective so that we can help to form an active partnership between the public and the government.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

You have made some good points. I wanted to talk to the industry representatives too. I want to commend you for taking action on sodium.

When I was a little younger, when we had our kids, we looked at the different amounts of sodium in things like baby food, soups, and snacks like potato chips. I have noticed that you are lowering the amounts of sodium in your foods, but there seem to be some questions around the table today. Coming from Oshawa and the auto industry, I know that there have been successes with voluntary agreements in the auto industry. Can Canadians be confident that a strategy of voluntary sodium reduction by the industry would work? Are you confident that it could work?

[Catherine O'Brien]

I can only speak from my company's perspective. We have made significant strides already, and we continue to do so. We have heard loud and clear from the medical and scientific community about the impacts of sodium on the health of Canadians. We've also heard from our consumers that they want to see sodium reduced. So we don't need any further incentive. I can guarantee you that in our company a voluntary approach is effective. We've already made progress; we will continue to do so. We are fully committed to methodically reducing sodium across the breadth of our products.

[Christine Lowry]

As for our company, a voluntary approach would definitely work. We've seen it work in the past on a number of different issues. We have a worldwide nutrition policy under which we are working hand in hand with governments, public health experts, and science. We will always do what's right for the health of Canadians. We try to stay abreast of new information and understand where science is going. We also try to stay current in our understanding of where consumers are going. We strongly support a collaborative approach in helping to improve the health of Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Lowry.

Ms. Murray.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for the information that you're providing.

It makes me wonder, if Finland started reducing their salt intake 30 years ago, what happened in Canada? Was there an international understanding of the science and Canadians were asleep at the switch? Perhaps you could tell me why we're so late off the mark on this issue?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Who would like to comment?

Ms. Gray-Donald.

[Dr. Katherine Gray-Donald]

Finland was known as the country with the world's highest risk of cardiovascular disease. If I'm not mistaken, they had a higher salt intake than we did. Britain seems to have higher salt intake than we have. We had a national nutrition survey in 1970; our next one was in 2004. So we had a 24-year gap in our knowledge of what Canadians were eating. People have asked why we are only now looking at it. Well, we surveyed 30,000 Canadians and found that the salt intakes are not at all where they should be.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Okay, thank you. I have a couple of other questions.

We have a major problem with salt over-consumption; we understand that. In the material we have, we see that another country that did a major reduction had targets and had government leadership. I'm hearing some good efforts from two representatives of the corporate world, I'm hearing about some research, but I don't see any national leadership on this. I haven't seen any targets, timelines, or any kind of framework other than, “Hey, everybody, this is a problem. Can you do your best?”

Do you think this is the kind of situation, now that we understand the gravity and we're prepared to do something individually, bottom up...? Do you think it would be more effective if there were strong leadership at Health Canada or at the federal government level with measurables, timelines, and stronger leadership and strategic plan?