Health Committee on Dec. 7th, 2009

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Could I comment to Patricia Davidson that in fact that's why the words were there in the first place? They're just to indicate what is the role of the committee on an issue like this and what are the limitations; it is to examine the qualifications of the appointee. I believe we've done a fairly thorough job of that and it's why I made the motion to actually recommend that the Prime Minister reconsider this appointment.

I think it was interesting, in fact, that Dr. Rouleau suggested that it's not the governing council that makes the overall strategic decisions; it's the scientific council of the organization. But it is the members, the directors, of the scientific institutes who in fact object to this appointment, so I think it's important for that to be noted before we vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Could I read this out now and then we'll go to the vote? Listen very carefully:

Pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111, your Committee has considered the Order in Council appointment of Bernard Michel Prigent to the Governing Council of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, referred to Committee on October 21, 2009, and has heard sufficient concerns that the Committee calls on the Prime Minister to withdraw Bernard Michel Prigent's appointment to the Governing Council of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.

That is the motion. We're now going to a vote.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Could I ask for a recorded vote, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

It's a recorded vote, everybody.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Are we voting on the amendment or the motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I just read it out. That's what we're voting on. I hope you all listened carefully. We're going to do a recorded vote.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Was it a friendly amendment? Is it an amended motion we're voting on and not the amendment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

It's the amended motion.

Do you want me to read it out again?

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

No, I've heard it. I just want to be clear on what we're voting on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Okay.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Chair, I have one more motion to present.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Yes, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Without repeating the first part, which is “Pursuant to Standing Orders”, etc., I move that the committee express its concern that Bernard Michel Prigent's competencies and abilities may be compromised by his employment responsibilities, and that his ability to perform governing council duties with respect to the public interest objectives of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, set out in the Canadian Institutes of Health Research Act, may be seriously impeded.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

Is there discussion on this particular motion?

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

On a point of order, we don't have copies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We don't have copies. She just moved it right now.

Dr. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I understand what the motion is supposed to do.

As we know, Judy, we're not really able to do anything other than express our concerns.

I am interested in what issues he will have to recuse himself on. I would be interested in finding out a little bit more about how he will function with this situation right now. He's going to be appointed. It's not going to be rescinded. So how do we, as a committee, make sure of the ethics of governing council? I almost wonder if we could be asking Professor Downie or some of the people who are very concerned about this to describe to us what would be an ethical framework for this man. Obviously they don't think there is one, but this would be in terms of making sure that recusals are clear and that they are at least outlined to us, as a committee, as to how this will go forward now that we've expressed our concern.

What might be of interest in the new year would be to have Dr. Beaudet come back and explain how he is going to work and what kinds of issues Dr. Prigent would not be included in.

It's not unusual that you have to recuse yourself. It's just that at CIHR it could be on an awful lot of the issues, if it were clearly articulated, on which he would not be permitted to.... This happens at cabinet all the time, and it's just that if you're eventually found to be out of the room more than you're in the room, it becomes less impressive as an appointment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'll go on, but I want to point out that this committee has spent two days now on this particular issue. Everyone has voiced their concerns. We did have a vote on a motion.

We have the public out there who are very concerned that we work on the HHR. And now I'm starting to hear that perhaps we can call more witnesses in to do this, that, and the other thing. I just want the committee to take serious consideration of our responsibilities as a health committee to get on with the task at hand.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you.

What I'd like to raise is that the work of this committee requires us to follow up our work. Just as you want to see the health human resources study furthered and completed and reported back, so too must we as a committee take this seriously and do our homework and do a report.

Having lost the motion, which actually calls upon the Prime Minister to reconsider, I feel it is still incumbent upon us to report back something. So I've tried to incorporate the kind of sentiment Carolyn Bennett has brought to the committee, which is the fact that if the government goes ahead with this appointment, it's going to have a heck of a problem, because in fact this guy is going to have to recuse himself more times than not. That's the straight fact of the matter.

The motion is an attempt to say that because of this conflict of interest, it's going to impede him in his duties, and therefore we express this concern to Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Dr. Bennett, did you want to make a comment?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I was just going to ask the clerk whether, now that we've made this recommendation, this is reported to the House or we need a separate motion to report it to the House. How does the decision of this committee get reported to the House or to the Prime Minister?

It's okay, Christine. Just tell us.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Christine Holke David]

You as a committee need to decide what you want to report back.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Instead of this large motion, Judy, I think you could move that the chair of the committee report the previous motion back to the House.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

The one that failed, you mean?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

No, you can't do that.