Evidence of meeting #78 for Health in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Thank you to the presenters.
Dr. McEwen, do you think veterinarians receive sufficient education and training with respect to AMR?
4:35 p.m.
Professor, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, As an Individual
I don't teach vet students; I haven't for about 10 years. My teaching responsibilities are mainly in veterinary public health aspects, food safety, and environmental health. However, I know as a student a long time ago that we got quite a bit of training on antimicrobial resistance. The principles really haven't changed. We've learned a lot more about the epidemiology of it. Some of the molecular aspects are new, but the basic biology, that if you use antibiotics you will eventually get resistance, has been known since the 1930s and 1940s, so those principles are in place. The basic procedures we use in order to try to reduce the spread of resistance have been around for a long time. Yes, veterinary students and medical students get good training in therapeutics, in microbiology, in clinical medicine, and in the understanding of antibiotic resistance.
Having said that, it is recognized that it's one of those crosscutting issues that can fall between the cracks. Usually, and certainly in our veterinary curricula, there isn't a course in antibiotic resistance where you learn everything. There are bits in this course and in that course; you get some in clinical medicine, some in animal production treatment. We can always improve on it, and we can always try to encourage students to be better stewards. I'm sure that's going to happen in the future.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Dr. McNabb, you also mentioned awareness and education for the producer. What is your thought about that? What kind of education do we need to provide to the producers?
4:35 p.m.
Co-Chair, National Farmed Animal Health and Welfare Council
I think it's through various means of communicating with producers. Certainly within the programs that I mentioned—the sustainability programs, your on-farm food safety programs—there are specific training materials that are provided to producers. I think it is through reminding them and taking every opportunity through various means. We know, particularly in adult education, that it's repeat, repeat, repeat. It's a matter of providing them with different forms of the information, not only what's expected through the regulatory regime, but also what they can do as stewards to increase biosecurity, and providing them with the tools that will all help in this area.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
Mr. Leech, you mentioned category I, category II, and category III antibiotics, and you said that some antibiotics are less effective on human health. Is there any evidence for that? Could you explain that?
4:40 p.m.
National Program Manager, Food Safety and Animal Welfare, Chicken Farmers of Canada
I'm just trying to refer back to the statement in my mind. Maybe what I was talking about at the time was the surveillance information that we have that indicates that there's a different level of antibiotics used in human medicine than in poultry production. Where we see a lot of category I antibiotics being used on the human health side, surveillance through the Public Health Agency of Canada has show that those aren't being used in poultry production. The devil is in the details in terms of what types of antimicrobials are being used in different commodities, in different sectors, at different times. That's really important to take into account. If we just talk general numbers of kilograms of use, what is actually being used, and how that has an impact, that's where some of the surveillance information really comes into play.
We talked about the government maintaining the ability to use antibiotics for treatment and support for that, and that's a really important factor in terms of what antibiotics are being used and in terms of being able to demonstrate that through surveillance.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON
How can we ensure the health and safety of Canadians who consume chicken or other animal products while also combatting the spreading of AMR?
4:40 p.m.
National Program Manager, Food Safety and Animal Welfare, Chicken Farmers of Canada
That's the important point, and the last item of my presentation was on communication to the public. We need to be confident in the food supply we have right now. As we make changes, it doesn't mean the product that's currently on the market is bad. We're looking at future changes in antimicrobial use. Again, we're going back to that surveillance information, looking at the information coming from that, and making educated changes.
That certainly doesn't mean that consumers have to be concerned about the product on the market right now. Part of our active communication to consumers is proper handling and cooking of product, and that stays true even with these changes coming into place. Bacteria is ever-present and everywhere, and certainly will continue to be. Those key messages for consumers will stay the same even as we move through this process.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
November 9th, 2017 / 4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
I'm very much a layperson with regard to AMR. I find this fascinating.
Thank you all for being here today. My questions will be layperson questions because I'm not that familiar, but I did take some notes during your presentations.
Are the guidelines different or similar between companion animals and food-producing animals? Can you give me more clarification on the guidelines between companion and food-producing, and the difference between the two?
4:40 p.m.
Chair, Prudent Use Guidelines Expert Advisory Group, Canadian Veterinary Medical Association
Obviously there are different guidelines for different food-producing species because they're managed and raised differently. The point that the veterinary community is not concerned or interested is that we have some guidelines that are federal rules on prescription only, for example, that impact all species. Therefore, when the drug is made prescription it's prescription for all species for all indications, so that starts to have some effect on how they're used in companion animals. As I mentioned, honeybees, aquarium fish, or some of the smaller species are not really on the radar.
For the veterinarians, all those rules become the same. You need to establish medical need before you generate a prescription, and a drug can't be sold unless there's a legitimate prescription. Those rules are the same. However, the management protocols on how you use the pharmaceuticals and what might be prudent use in one species certainly can be prudent in another species, which would include small animals. Again, from a veterinarian's point of view, we have veterinarians like me, when I was in practice, who dealt with all species and we have veterinarians who deal with only one species and become expert in it. We rely on their expertise to help us develop those guidelines and what's the best, most prudent use in the individual species.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
That's interesting.
Chicken Farmers of Canada, Steven Leech, I thank you, and I thank all 2,800 of the chicken farmers you represent. I love chicken. I eat it for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and nighttime snacks, so thank you for the work you do.
4:45 p.m.
National Program Manager, Food Safety and Animal Welfare, Chicken Farmers of Canada
That's great to hear.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. Can we put in a good word for bacon?
4:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
I like bacon as well, but not like chicken.
In any event, I'm curious about the consumer going to the store. Are there label requirements for consumers for them to be able to know what they're consuming and if that particular chicken has had antibiotics in the past? Just a silly question, but please—
4:45 p.m.
National Program Manager, Food Safety and Animal Welfare, Chicken Farmers of Canada
Not at all, there's a lot of confusion with labels so it's very top of mind. There is a federally inspected label for antimicrobial use. Any product that goes through a federally inspected plant can use the terminology “raised without the use of antibiotics”. That's what's being used in Canada. A consumer seeing that at the retail store will have the confidence that no antibiotic has been used in the raising of that product from the hatchery all the way through to grow out. That is the clear term that needs to be used.
It does become a little murky going down to the provincial and levels lower than that in some of the terminology being used, but certainly at the federal level it's quite clear.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
What percentage of chickens out there have had that requirement to consume or use antibiotics?
4:45 p.m.
National Program Manager, Food Safety and Animal Welfare, Chicken Farmers of Canada
It's a good question. I've been harping on surveillance. Surveillance is one of the key areas we need to continue working on so that we have a better handle on exactly the amount of usage throughout the industry.
Certainly, over the last number of years, the amount of “raised without the use of antibiotics” products and chicken has been increasing. More importantly, I spoke to the fact that we don't think “raised without the use of antibiotics” is sustainable for the entire industry. We've seen the demand for products raised without the use of antibiotics of importance to humans, categories I to III, start to increase.
Certainly, as an industry, that's where we'd like the attention to be placed so that we still have tools in our tool box and are focusing on the most important antimicrobials.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Len Webber Conservative Calgary Confederation, AB
Dr. McEwen, you talked about a 50% reduction in antimicrobials in other countries. Where are we, percentage-wise, in Canada with respect to our reduction in antimicrobials? Are we around that percentage?
4:45 p.m.
Professor, Ontario Veterinary College, University of Guelph, As an Individual
To give you an idea, the latest version of the “Canadian Antimicrobial Resistance Surveillance System Report 2016” indicated that in Canada, medically important antimicrobials are used in animals to the extent of 160 milligrams per kilogram. That's the average across the country. The United Kingdom recently underwent a targeted reduction program, and the goal was to get to 50 milligrams per kilogram. Other European countries are lower. Some are higher than that. That gives you a ballpark estimate. We're in there with some of the European countries.
Many countries around the world do not monitor antimicrobial use yet. As Mr. Leech has pointed out, and I agree with him entirely, we need better surveillance of use. The OIE is doing a lot to try to get that adopted around the world.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Now it's time to have the French version of the question.
Thank you everyone.
Like my colleagues, I found your remarks very interesting. You are top scientists, whereas I am a neophyte in the field. My questions will more akin to philosophical considerations. They will also pertain to your approach.
Certain witnesses have said that some doctors write too many prescriptions. Those witnesses mentioned ear infections in children as an example. The parents absolutely wanted a solution and antibiotics were the miracle solution.
Do we see the same trend among those who raise animals? Do they want a faster and simpler solution, which ultimately costs more? I would really like to explore the aspect of costs. Does the same trend exist in this field?
Mr. Landals, you may answer my question.
