Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Sept. 13th, 2007

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I have another question.

Thank you for expressing your opinion so forcefully. Do you recall if either the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer or Elections Canada initiated any consultations on this matter in the past two years? Have you been consulted?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Raheel.

[Raheel Raza]

No, we have not been consulted.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

On that consultation, there was a report in the Toronto Sun newspaper that Elections Canada did consult on the telephone with the group called the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, CAIR-CAN. I've submitted a copy of that news article to Madame Faille to review.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Madame Faille, you have two minutes left.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I have the article here in front of me. The organization's representative, Mr. John Enright, says that officials with the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations were consulted and that no other group was contacted.

Do you feel that the decision made this week by the Chief Electoral Officer is unreasonable? Am I to understand that you feel that way? Do you feel that his decision was somewhat premature?

[Sohail Raza]

First of all, that's a committee for American-Islamic relations. It has nothing to do with Canada, so I would rather the Canadian-Islamic organizations be consulted. Secondly, they don't speak for the majority of people. They are the tiny minority I mentioned in my initial address. So we have to be very careful about who we deal with, and see where their funding is from. If the funding is coming from countries that are questionable, then the Canadian government should take note of that.

Has the committee thought of a voter's registration card, as they have in the United States? That would probably solve a couple of problems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Please, just jump in and start answering.

[Farzana Hassan]

I believe that very organization that was consulted has in fact retracted their position. They've been out in the media saying it's not a requirement for women to be veiled.

My question is, how are you going to ensure that the same veiled person is not going to vote a multiple number of times using different identifications? Unless identification can be connected to the person voting, it is useless. So if there isn't legislation in place at the moment for voters to identify themselves visually, there should be, and that's what I'm proposing here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

We've got one second left in that round, so we'll just stop it there.

I would remind witnesses that although we appreciate your comments, the questions are for the members. Therein lies the struggle that we have before us.

Mr. Dewar, go ahead, please, for seven minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to start off by thanking our guests for coming on what was extremely short notice. We have people coming from out of town, and I do appreciate your taking the time to come, and for providing what I think is a really interesting array of opinions. It's too bad we didn't have this consultation before. I just say that for all of us. I guess that's where I'd like to start.

I asked the previous witness, the Chief Electoral Officer, if there had been any consultations at all with the community. I also want to underline—and I'm glad it was already brought up—that this should not be about religion. That's the wrong path to go down. This should be about what's required when you vote. I simply brought up the example of Morocco because I just returned from there. It wasn't about religion. It so happens that veiled women show up, and they are required to unveil, but that applies right across the board. I saw it with my own eyes.

So my question is, to help us here as legislators—and maybe I'll start with Ms. Hogben—what do you think the law should be?

[Alia Hogben]

I seem to be repeating myself, I think, even this discussion again. There is no one Muslim community; there are Muslim communities. I think CAIR Canada has their own opinions, and they can express them. I don't think they are an illegitimate group.

You're hearing different opinions today, but I think certain fundamentals should be heard here. One is that we're not one monolithic community; you'll get different and diverse opinions. Secondly, I think I agree with you that it should not be on religious grounds. And thirdly, I'm really making the point over and over again that this discussion should not be focusing on Muslim women, veiled or unveiled.

And to answer your question, if the Elections Act itself has three options, then, as a committee of Parliament with the obligation, you have to look at whether you want those three options. If it means changing it so that people can't vote by mail, then that's your responsibility. But you have to look at it from the point of view of security, human rights, encouraging voting, all those things, not to do with us as Muslims, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Mr. Mansur, do you want to speak to this?

[Salim Mansur]

Yes, very briefly.

I concur with Madam Hogben that this is not a Muslim issue, but it becomes a Muslim issue if concessions are made for folks who are of a particular faith tradition and practising a particular custom. So it cannot be divorced as it is, so they come down to it.

I would say we are Canadian and we have a Canadian standard. Anyone who participates in Canadian democracy must meet those minimum standards, with no exception.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Mr. Basalamah, then Mr. Côté.

[Salah Basalamah]

As I see it, if the law is amended, then Muslims will become involved. The act would only be amended in response to pressure from hooligans—and this type of sentiment has surfaced in Quebec. These hooligans have an abiding hatred for Muslim extremism, and I can understand why they may feel this way. However, this hatred is directed toward the entire Muslim community and amending the act would send a negative message to the whole community, not just to the women who wear the niqab. Such a move would convey a poor message and would prove unwise in the long term.

[Pierre F. Côté]

In my view, the Canada Elections Act should state very clearly that in addition to having one's name on the voter registration list, one must be able to present some identification in order to exercise one's right to vote. Quite clearly, the identification issue currently being discussed has nothing to do with religion. I maintain that at this point in time, the federal Chief Electoral Officer should invoke section 17 of the Canada Elections Act which allows him, much like Quebec's Chief Electoral Officer, to require veiled women to uncover their face in order to exercise their right to vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Mr. Dewar, you have two minutes left if you would like to take them.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, I think that's the heart of the matter for me. I think it's important to note there's a consensus here, and sadly that didn't happen when we were looking at the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Next on my list is Madam Redman. We're on our second round of questions, so these are five-minute rounds.

Madam Redman, please.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses here today. You are incredibly articulate, and I would agree with Mr. Dewar; I wish we'd had these discussions in this committee last spring. This is a change in legislation in somewhat new territory.

I would suggest to you that Monsieur Mayrand was also very articulate and quite explicit in what he's willing to do. It seems to me that we have come down to a juncture where he is saying the legislation needs to be changed. And as much as some of my Conservative colleagues may wish that we indeed were Parliament, we are not Parliament; any motion or decision that is made by a committee only receives sanction by the House of Parliament, and to change legislation would also involve the Senate. So I would suggest to you that it is very naive to hold out any kind of hope that what happens at this committee is going to compel Monsieur Mayrand or indeed change legislation before the by-elections that are occurring this Monday.

That said, it seems to me that what we're down to is a difference between requesting anyone with a veil to expose their face, and what I'm hearing from the vast majority of you, if not unanimity, is that Muslim women are used to exposing their faces and therefore would, in all likelihood, comply. So it's a difference between requesting and compelling people to do that. I think we've more than established the fact that there are a variety of ways to vote and that, indeed, photo ID is somewhat new in the Canadian electoral system, which hence is probably why we're dealing with something that we should have anticipated but as a committee did not.

A comment has been made that the accommodation that Monsieur Mayrand is willing to do to employ more females in polling stations in order to add to the comfort of females who are going to comply with the request to be visually identified with their photo ID was in some way acquiescing to some of the darker natures of some of the cultural things that are often associated with the Muslim community. I thought that was a somewhat sympathetic, reasonable accommodation, and I would just like to hear from all of you, or any of you. I believe it was Mr. Harris who actually made that comment. I was somewhat taken aback by that. I would just ask for a reaction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

If I could just allow Mr. Harris to comment, since he was mentioned, he'll have the first option on the floor, and then we'll go to Madam Raza.

[David Harris]

Thank you for that question.

The Canadian Coalition for Democracies has worked with a number of Muslim women's groups and Muslim women who have undertaken a courageous combat against the effort by radical fundamentalists to impose upon them, in Ontario, sharia law. Essentially, it was in that spirit that I made those remarks, and I find it dismaying to think that an agency of government might wind up inadvertently facilitating exactly those kinds of standards imposed upon the Islamic community of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Madam Raza, please.

[Raheel Raza]

I agree with Mr. Harris that there should be no exceptions, because this is perceived on the outside that there is a very fine line between accommodation and nuisance value. The people here may not be aware of the fact that this creates a sort of angst against the Muslim community when this continues to be a Muslim issue. So accommodation is not acceptable. There has to be one rule for all, because we don't want it to become a situation like some countries in Europe where eventually the burka and the veil were banned, with respect to those women who want to continue to wear those clothes.

Certainly we have this idea that there should be no accommodation in this.

Thank you.