Evidence of meeting #27 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Pierre Kingsley  Former Chief Electoral Officer, As an Individual
Michel Bédard  Committee Researcher
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Angela Crandall

12:10 p.m.

Michel Bédard Committee Researcher

Thank you very much.

The chair asked me to present the referendum framework in Canada, so I'll present quickly the Referendum Act and give some information about the study that was conducted by this committee in the last session. Mr. Kingsley also referred to much of the information to which I will refer.

As you know, the Referendum Act was adopted in 1992, just in time for the referendum on the Charlottetown Accord.

The Referendum Act itself is not a comprehensive or exhaustive statute. It has only 40 sections. It refers to the Canada Elections Act, and it requires the Chief Electoral Officer to make the necessary adaptations to the Canada Elections Act so it can apply in a referendum context.

In June 2009 the Chief Electoral Officer sent a proposed set of regulations to this committee, which would adapt the Canada Elections Act. His document triggered this study, because the Chief Electoral Officer, in his submission, brought to the attention of this committee some of the problems with the current system.

One of the problems was that the Referendum Act was adopted in 1992, and following that the Canada Elections Act was completely overhauled in 2000. The schedules in the Referendum Act now refer to sections of the Canada Elections Act that no longer exist, so there is an inconsistency there. They also refer to amendments that have been made to the Canada Elections Act, which are very difficult to include in the referendum regime.

He brought these problems to the attention of this committee. He also brought to the attention of this committee the fact that the referendum regime is no longer aligned with the values of the electoral regime, in that there is no limit on contributions; there is virtually no limit on spending; corporations and unions can make contributions; and the punishment for an offence in the referendum context is different from the punishment for the same offence in an electoral context. So there is some inconsistency between the Referendum Act and the Canada Elections Act. Also under the Referendum Act, inmates serving a sentence of two years or more cannot vote. And I will provide more explanation on that later, because Mr. Kingsley made some comments in that regard.

In the Referendum Act, there is a provision mandating that a House of Commons and Senate committee proceed to a three-year study following the implementation of this act. The act entered into force in 1992. In 1995, a study was undertaken, but there was only one preliminary meeting before Parliament prorogued. Further to that, committee study did not resume until last year.

To date Mr. Mayrand testified before the committee obviously, and so did several provincial chief electoral officers, including Mr. Blanchet from Quebec, Mr. Neufeld from B.C., Professor Louis Massicotte from Laval University, and Patrick Boyer, a former member of Parliament and rather prolific writer in the area of electoral and referendum-related issues.

A number of issues were identified by the committee. First of all, the legislative framework. Do we maintain the same legislative framework, in other words a partial referendum act along with regulations established by the Chief Electoral Officer, or, instead, do we opt for complete and comprehensive referendum legislation? A third motion would be to have a referendum act or provisions, a referendum regime which would be included within the Elections Act.

The committee also addressed the issue of the topic. At this point, the topic must strictly refer to constitutional matters, the Constitution of Canada. Would it be timely to broaden provisions so as to include all public interest matters as potentially being the subject of a referendum?

Another matter was addressed by the committee, and witnesses raised important issues: the holding of a referendum and of a general election at the same time. At this point, it is currently prohibited pursuant to the Referendum Act, as a referendum would be cancelled if ever general elections were called.

Obviously, there is the issue of the referendum finances, which I briefly raised earlier on. Do we want to keep the same regime or have umbrella organizations, like they have in Quebec, or should we perhaps choose something like what was presented by Mr. Kingsley, earlier on, where committees could be deemed to be third parties?

Another issue was that of simultaneous provincial and federal referenda, as took place in 1992 in Quebec and the rest of Canada.

Finally, another issue has to do with inmate voting. I noticed that Ms. DeBellefeuille asked a question of Mr. Kingsley on this matter, earlier on. Two judgments have been rendered by the Supreme Court. One of them, in Haig, was handed down in 1993, precisely in the wake of the 1992 referendum. Practically speaking, the finding was that article 3 of the charter, guaranteeing certain democratic rights, applies within the electoral context and not to referenda. So, even though the right to vote was granted to prisoners later on, in the context of another Supreme Court decision, this case law does not apply. In other words the Chief Electoral Officer, when the Elections Act was passed, had to maintain the disenfranchisement of inmates. There is no discretionary authority in this respect. The Supreme Court decision disqualifying them from voting in the context of elections does not apply to referenda. And that is actually Mr. Mayrand's position, he who in fact administers legislation in this regard.

Those were the main issues in the study. There are others, rather technical in nature, presented by Mr. Mayrand, but insofar as there would be a new legislative framework for referenda, these matters would be addressed and rectified. In essence, that is the referendum context and an update on the study.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Good job.

Are there any questions from the committee as to where we are so far? Are there any questions for the researchers on the work they've presented to you today?

Madam Ratansi.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I'm new to the committee, so what do we do going forward? We have everybody's input. We now have Mr. Kingsley's input. Some of what Mr. Kingsley has said really contradicts what Mr. Mayrand has said.

What is the next step? There are so many ideas floating around. What is the committee proposing to do with it?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Well, I guess there are two or three things. One, we could carry on with the study and suggest other witnesses who would maybe help to balance testimony we've already heard. Two, we could simply stop where we are, say we've heard enough, and then write some sort of report--an answer to the Chief Electoral Officer on his recommendations for changes.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

If we were to do tha.... For example, you put five professors in a room and they'll give you five different ideas; they'll capitalize on somebody else's ideas. The decision really is ours to say how we should be proceeding. Because you say this says this and this says that, so therefore what? Is “therefore” our decision?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

It's always the committee's decision.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Okay.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

But we do have 12 people here who have to come to a similar decision.

Mr. Albrecht and then Madame DeBellefeuille.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Mr. Chair, I agree totally that the matter is ultimately in the hands of the committee. But as you pointed out earlier, Mr. Chair, we're not going to make a decision today on which way we're going with this.

Before we make any definitive decisions on any of these sections, we should hear again from our current Chief Electoral Officer, to get his opinion on the various options our researchers have put before us. Maybe he sees a third option that we haven't considered. I think it would be wise for us to get his input now that we have the input from all the witnesses who have appeared before us.

We'll ask the Chief Electoral Officer to give his opinion on the current options, because these were not before us before today. That's my suggestion.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

By way of counter-question, basically you're saying you were not privy to what you've heard today and what the analyst has prepared for us, so you couldn't have asked Mr. Mayrand to explain if that would be something he would look at. Is that right?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

In deference to our Chief Electoral Officer, I think we owe it to him to look at the options we're considering now that we've done part of our study before we, as a committee, move blindly ahead and say we're going to choose option A in section A; we're going to choose option B in section B, or option A in section B.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

But that's not what my understanding was.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

If I may, while we were doing this study, and it was quite a while ago--I did review most of my notes on this, and not at any great length, to tell you the truth--we said we would have Monsieur Mayrand come first and last, and in between we would gather all the facts we could. We thought Mr. Kingsley might be a pretty good person to gather some facts from, but because he was working in Washington at the time and it was very tough for this committee to get him. The fact that we could have him here today has helped us to hear his side. He has thrown out three or four things that we've not heard from other witnesses.

That was the thought of how that study would go. If we intend to continue the study that would certainly be up to this committee, but it had already recommended that before we write a report or make any recommendations we would have Monsieur Mayrand back to tell him we're leaning this way or that, and to ask him his views. He has been watching this testimony, too.

Michel.

12:20 p.m.

Committee Researcher

Michel Bédard

The paper that was circulated to committee members on issues and options includes options that emerged from the evidence presented to the committee. Members may have other ideas, other options they want to put on the table, and Mr. Kingsley made some proposals today that were obviously not included in the paper, because it was presented before his appearance.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Madame DeBellefeuille.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I rather agree with Harold. Whether or not we decide to continue the study and issue a report, we still need to take the time to hear from Mr. Mayrand in order to complete our work. It would be somewhat irresponsible on our part, having worked a number times on this issue to set it aside without completing it. We did take the time to listen to witnesses.

Even if this subject is not urgent, granted, it remains our responsibility to review the act. I think it is lagging in some respects. I would agree to summon Mr. Mayrand and have that on our agenda, before we close. I found that it was challenging to hear from Mr. Kingsley today as it was far back in my memory. We had time to prepare, this morning, with Michel's notes, but it has to be said that it was tiresome. So, I think it would be important to complete our hearing of witnesses with Mr. Mayrand. Then, we can have a debate to know whether or not we should issue a report or continue our study in greater detail. We do need to close the loop.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Christopherson.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I want to agree with my fellow Harold. He gets it. I think it's a great idea. There is another thing I would ask, though.

Michel, I thought you gave an excellent summary of the key issues we need to wrestle with. I know the material is in here. If I could suggest, Chair, through you or to you, that what would be really helpful, for me anyway, would be to take each of those issues as you presented them, but also where all the various expert witnesses fell, just even in point form: So-and-so agreed with this; so-and-so disagreed. Then provide, obviously where it would be helpful, a little bit of why they felt that way so that we can get a snapshot of not only what the issues are, but summarized underneath. You've done the summary by witnesses, and that's great, but it would really help me to have the issue, where each of them fell laid out nicely in point form, and then when we can bring in the Chief Electoral Officer. It would really help me to know the context.

I'll leave it with you.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Good thought, and we'll ask if that can happen.

Further comments or questions? As I said, I'm not trying to come to this conclusion today. I'm asking you not to come to this conclusion today. So let's now wait. We have Mr. Chong and his motion on Thursday. We don't know how much work that will bring this committee. At the end of that day or the start of the meeting following, we'll be able to then spend a little time asking where are we putting our efforts, recognizing that we are also looking at a fair amount of work on the Chief Electoral Officer's recommendations, and there may be a bit emerging here. Maybe at the end of the day we could have him back on both of the topics, when we're done both topics, for a half an hour on one and three-quarters of an hour on the other, that type of thing. I'm just suggesting that might be a thought.

If we think we're close to being done with our work but just have some questions of the Chief Electoral Officer on the Referendum Act, it may be a way for us to spend one more meeting on it and complete it. But I hope I'm hearing from you that it's one more meeting.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

You sound reasonable.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I try to be reasonable. Could I get a note from you for my wife?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I said you “sound” reasonable.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

She doesn't live with you.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Okay, now you're taking her side.

Mr. Christopherson.

12:25 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I wondered if you might be able to leave a couple of minutes after that presentation while everything is fresh in our minds and get at least some of our top-of-mind thoughts on where we proceed on that.