Evidence of meeting #39 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was block.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Principal, Tactix Government Relations and Public Affairs, As an Individual
I consider Russell a friend, yes.
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
And you, Mr. Mains, are you also a personal friend of Mr. Ullyatt?
Co-President, Tactix Government Relations and Public Affairs, As an Individual
I met Mr. Ullyatt back in April or so, and I was impressed with him. We shared a few things in common. Both of us came out of the Ottawa Valley and there were a few other things in life that we shared. And yes, I considered him a friend.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Perhaps you go to the same social venues, the same clubs. Therefore, you have other discussions, other meetings outside of working hours.
Co-President, Tactix Government Relations and Public Affairs, As an Individual
We attend the same church.
Bloc
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association
I describe our relationship as professional but friendly. We would meet occasionally for lunch. I don't know his spouse. He doesn't know mine. I've never been to his house, he's never been to mine. But I would describe him as a friend, yes.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Were you surprised to receive a confidential draft from Mr. Ullyatt? Were you surprised by what he did?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association
Mr. Chair, I'd like to point out that I didn't solicit, receive, or read the draft report.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
I understand, but a chum, a professional or personal friend, could expect to receive confidential documents. Did that surprise you?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association
I didn't receive the document in question. And in terms of friendship, does one assume that it will lead to the exchange of confidential information? No.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
As for you, Mr. Gibbons, are you a great friend of Mr. Ullyatt's?
As an Individual
A professional friend relationship. I consider Mr. Ullyatt a friend. The answer to the question is yes.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Thus, Mr. Ullyatt had a good network of contacts with lobbyists. Indeed it is quite practical for you to develop a great friendship with a parliamentary assistant.
Were you surprised, Mr. Gibbons, when you received the confidential draft report? Did that surprise you?
As an Individual
Mr. Ullyatt was aware that I was following the proceedings of the finance committee. I never expected to receive that report. I never asked for the report, and nobody ever asked me to obtain a copy of that report.
Bloc
Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC
Mr. Mains, when you received the email from Russell, what did you do with it? In your case we clearly see that Russell had indicated that this report was not to be circulated. When you saw this line in the email did it not ring a bell for you? I can understand Ms. Hamilton, who says that she only looked at the email on her BlackBerry and did not see the warning, according to what she tells us. However in your case, the line is clearly there. Let me read out the French version to you: "I said to myself that you would perhaps like to take a look at this while it is still at the draft stage. For reasons that are obvious enough, please do not circulate this document". It seems to me that in this case you should have reacted. What was your reaction when you received this email?
Co-President, Tactix Government Relations and Public Affairs, As an Individual
The time that it was sent to me I was with clients. We were running in between meetings, and I was actually late, or our clients were late, for a meeting. I looked at that e-mail on my BlackBerry. When you read an e-mail on a BlackBerry, you glance at the first line, maybe two, and then dismiss it. This is the first time I've actually heard the content of the e-mail read to me. I never read the e-mail in its entirety, so this is news to me.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
A lot of high-paid talent that don't know how to read, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Egan, what was the question suggested to you by Mr. Ullyatt, or that you suggested to Mr. Ullyatt for the committee?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ullyatt knew I was presenting to the committee. Mr. Ullyatt had asked me what relevance my presentation would have to the province of Saskatchewan, and particularly to the interest of his member of Parliament from Saskatchewan. I gave him several relevant points to my presentation that I thought bore on the interests of Saskatchewan members of Parliament.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Which was the very first question Ms. Block asked to you after she made un petit laïus on the question of gender-based budget analysis. She went on to say: “I understand that the Saskatchewan Research Council is involved in some technology research around new combined heat and power technology...”.
That was the log-rolling that you did as a result of your conversation with Mr. Ullyatt.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Gas Association
Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure what “log-rolling” means, but Mr. Ullyatt had asked me specifically what relevance my presentation had to Saskatchewan interests. I responded to that. The particular question that Ms. Block asked very much reflects the conversations that Mr. Ullyatt and I had, and it is indeed relevant, I think, to the province of Saskatchewan that the research on—
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
There's no question about that, Mr. Egan, and I'm sure it was just as genuine as your surprise in your answer to Ms. Block when you thanked her profoundly for her question.
Ms. Hamilton, to you now.... You have a lot of experience in government. If I'm not mistaken, you were chief of staff to an Ontario minister, health and long-term care...many years at Hill & Knowlton...ministry of northern development.... You were even the media coordinator around the Walkerton water tragedy in early 2000. So you're a pretty experienced person in terms of government relations.
I use my BlackBerry all the time. You'll notice that all the members of this committee have them out on the table. This is our computer. I actually read what comes to me on my BlackBerry. I'm a little bit surprised to find out that you don't, and I frankly have a little bit of difficulty understanding how, after having exchanged all day with Mr. Ullyatt, you still come before this committee and expect us to believe that you never noticed what was the very first thing written there.
I'll read it to you again, just in case you've forgotten:
This draft report will be considered at an in camera meeting....
You know what in camera means; you're an experienced government operative.
Please bring a copy of this document to the meeting. This draft report is CONFIDENTIAL....
—in big block black letters, CONFIDENTIAL—
until tabled in the House of Commons. Disclosure of information contained in this report prior to its presentation to the House of Commons could be considered a potential breach of parliamentary privilege.
So with decades of experience in government, having received that clearly in your e-mail, writing back to the person to say “I love you”, that's great, he banters back about his shortcomings, and you say “you have no shortcomings”.
You know what you've just received. We know that you knew what you had just received. You're still telling us, no way, you didn't know that it was a confidential document, not at the beginning of the day when you looked at it, not during the middle of the day when you were exchanging with Mr. Ullyatt, not at the end of the day when you looked at it again. You weren't putting the kids on the bus any more when you were writing back to Mr. Ullyatt, Ms. Hamilton. How is it possible that you never noticed that big block letter warning that it was confidential?
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
You'll notice also that it's on the contents of the e-mail; it's not on the document. It does not appear on your BlackBerry when you pull it up; you have to scroll down. I didn't scroll down. I saw a quick note from Russell; I went through the rest of my day. I printed it; I didn't open it. I basically clicked on the attachment, it opened, and as far as I knew it was publicly available information. To the best of my knowledge and truth to all of you in the committee, I did not know what I had when I had it.
