Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 16th, 2010

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I was not aware that he was applying for other employment.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Are you aware that the finance committee has approved almost $500,000 for the study, which is now down the drain because of this?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I am on the finance committee, and as I mentioned in my opening remarks, no one could be more disappointed than I that this has taken place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Lukiwski, you are up next, for seven minutes, please.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Block, I have a few comments and then a couple of brief questions.

I want the members of this committee to realize, for what it's worth, that Mrs. Block and I go back a long way, probably longer than either of us wants to admit. During that time I've had many opportunities to speak with Mrs. Block and work with her in various capacities, and I've always found her to be a woman of great integrity and great honesty.

In fact, I think her honesty is clearly illustrated in the case we're examining today. I would suggest to members of this committee that had it not been for Mrs. Block, we might not have known that the leak occurred. I say that because Mr. Ullyatt stated during testimony that his intention was to deceive Mrs. Block to prevent her from knowing what he had done in his transmission of e-mails to lobbyists.

With respect to the lobbyists, I don't know if there is any member of this committee who could honestly say that they would have come forward voluntarily to provide information on this leak had the issue not become public because of Mrs. Block's actions.

We had the lobbyists before us a couple of days ago, and I think we all remember their testimony. One lobbyist said he waited five days before he finally admitted that he had received confidential information, and he only came forward after five days because the issue became public. Another lobbyist testified that even though she received the e-mail from Mr. Ullyatt containing this confidential information, she did not open that e-mail for several hours. She testified that when she did open it, she found the information to be non-confidential, in her opinion. She thought it was information that was already in the public domain, even though the e-mail was stamped “highly confidential” in big bold letters. Yet a third lobbyist stated that while he knew the information was confidential and knew he shouldn't have been in possession of that information, he still took a summary of it and forwarded it to a client of his.

To answer my own question, do we really think that the lobbyists would have come forward voluntarily? I think not. Therefore, the only way members of the finance committee, members of the House, and members of this committee could have known about this leak was through Mrs. Block informing them. She took immediate action, as she mentioned in her opening statement; rather than covering it up, she shed light on a very serious breach of privilege. For that, Mrs. Block, I thank you. I know the Speaker has already commended you for your actions, and I quite frankly think that members of this committee should extend their gratitude for your actions as well.

I have a few brief questions, because I think it's germane to this committee that we determine what involvement you may have had in the entire activity.

In your confrontation with Mr. Ullyatt, he confirmed to you that he had leaked information. Did you have any knowledge before that time that a leak had actually occurred?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I did not.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Prior to your speaking with Mr. Ullyatt, did you at any time have any suspicions that he may have been considering leaking information to lobbyists?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

No, sir, I did not.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Then let me ask you quite directly if you at any time instructed Mr. Ullyatt to release information to lobbyists--or to anyone else, for that matter--or suggested that he do so, or tried to persuade him to do so.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Absolutely not.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

You're stating for the record today that you neither had knowledge of this leak nor gave any approval in any way, shape, or form for Mr. Ullyatt to share this confidential information with anyone.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

That is correct.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mrs. Block, one of the things that this committee is charged with, at least in my opinion, is trying to find ways, as you put it in your opening statement, of establishing or recommending protocols so that this type of leak would never happen again. In hindsight, do you believe there is anything that you might have been able to do that could have prevented this leak from occurring?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Chair, that's a very interesting question. The committee had been informed, I believe at the previous meeting, that we would be receiving the report and that it might be sent to us on the 18th, but I had no influence over who would receive that report. I believe that all staff in the Ottawa offices of members of Parliament would have received that report.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

That report was sent from the clerk of the finance committee?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Yes.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

And was it sent to your office account or your personal account?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I did not receive it in my personal account. It went to my executive assistant's account and my legislative assistant's account.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

In hindsight, do you think that perhaps one of the protocols we could recommend for the future would be that any confidential reports from any committee be sent directly to the member's personal account, rather than their office account?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Absolutely.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Would that be a protocol you might suggest?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Absolutely.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Let me just ask you this, because I'm curious. I know you said there was no one more disappointed than you were, and I truly believe that, but tell me what you felt. How did you react when you first found out there had been a leak?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Well, Mr. Chair, I was absolutely shocked and appalled. I believe I said to Emrys when he showed it to me that it was grounds for immediate termination.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

You considered, obviously, this to have been a huge breach of loyalty?