Evidence of meeting #44 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was believe.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
You mentioned that you haven't had any conversations with Ms. Hamilton since this incident first came to light. Have you had any conversations or contact with any of the other lobbyists since this issue surfaced?
As an Individual
I believe I contacted one of the other lobbyists to wish them a Merry Christmas, and that was the extent of my communications with them.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
But there was nothing relative to the proceedings before us today.
As an Individual
I have not contacted any of the lobbyists to ask, infer, or persuade in regard to any of the proceedings that have happened since December 14, or whatever the date was.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
It sure looks like we're winding down.
Monsieur Laframboise.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ullyatt, in your opening statement and in your response to Mr. Lukiwski earlier, you said it was spontaneous. I have a real problem with that because I have the email from Ms. Hamilton. You didn't do a file transfer; you wrote an e-mail to which you attached the report. Is that what happened?
As an Individual
I believe I forwarded the e-mail and added ten words. As I indicated to Mr. Lukiwski and in my original testimony in December, it was a lack of respect for the document. It wasn't any type of premeditation of sending it to somebody.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
If you had forwarded the e-mail that you had received from the clerk, I would have said it wasn't premeditated. You wrote the e-mail and you attached... You're telling us you didn't read it, but you at least read what you sent, since, in your e-mail, you say the following to Ms. Hamilton: "I thought you may want a peak at this in its infancy." You knew that because the introduction read: "Please find enclosed a copy of the draft report from the Standing Committee.... This draft report will be considered... November 22..." and "This draft report is CONFIDENTIAL..." in bold.
So that appears in the e-mail that you wrote. So you knew very well that it was confidential. You didn't forward the e-mail from the clerk; you forwarded an e-mail to Ms. Hamilton to which you appended the report.
When you say that you didn't read it, I believe you, but when you say it was spontaneous, I say to you that you knew very well that it was confidential. You knew it was a draft because you had read that. That's the situation, isn't it?
As an Individual
I believe you are somewhat correct. I forwarded the document. I didn't have to attach the attachment; it was already attached. When you click on “forward”, it typically includes the attachments of another e-mail. I didn't draft much of an e-mail. I wrote 10 words. I did not read the report.
I understand you are saying that it's not a spontaneous action to write 10 words. I have already admitted that I knew what I was doing was wrong. I did not understand the gravitas of what I was doing. I did not understand the affront to the institution of Parliament that I was committing. But I do understand that now. Hindsight is 20/20.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Mr. Ullyatt, in my opinion, it wasn't spontaneous; you knew what you were doing. Furthermore, I may take the liberty of telling you that, in my view, that was not the first time and that your boss was aware because you know very well what you did. You wrote your e-mail, and you appended the drafted report. Once again, that reveals an open way of proceeding.
You can tell me today that it was spontaneous; I am telling you that it was not. By answering my question, you're showing that I'm right.
Was that common procedure in that office?
As an Individual
Mr. Chair, once again I'll say that Mrs. Block had no knowledge of what I was doing. I was acting completely on my own. I don't believe that my actions are typical activity for any political staffer of any political party. I would never--
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Mr. Ullyatt, I didn't ask you whether Ms. Block knew. I asked you whether that was common procedure at Ms. Block's office. Was that a way of proceeding that was recognized by your boss? I'm not telling you she was aware of this matter; I'm telling you that the way in which you proceeded suggests that you wrote your e-mail, attached a document to it and that that was the way you proceeded at the office, and Ms. Block knew very well that that was how your proceeded. Was that the way of proceeding at the office? That's the question I'm asking you.
As an Individual
No, this is not the typical methodology of Mrs. Block's office, and she had no knowledge of my actions.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Monsieur Laframboise.
Mr. Christopherson, did you...?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
We're just about finished the hour. Is there any one-off, a one question kind of thing?
Ms. Ratansi.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Yes, yes. That's all I'm talking about.
Thank you, Mr. Ullyatt, for being here. You know, everybody feels that this has been an exercise that could have been avoided had you been more cautious about what you were doing.
Did you ever attend any of the pre-budget consultation meetings with Ms. Block? If so, or if yes or no, why did you think this document was so important that you sent it out to the lobbyists? What made you think there was something in it that created so much confusion for everyone? We could have avoided the whole thing.
So explain to me, because you have selective memories when it comes to certain things.... Mr. Cross asks you, “When is the final report being released?”, and it's right there, so you had sent him a draft report on the 17th. It's really confusing. We'd like to believe you, but it's getting difficult.
As an Individual
I completely respect how it might seem confusing. I'm confused myself. I have been searching for a reason as to why I did what I did. I, too, agree that had I had more respect for the document itself, this entire situation could have been avoided.
I believe part of your question was, “Did you attend some of the meetings of the pre-budget consultations with Mrs. Block?” They are quite numerous. They are quite long. I attended some of the meetings. I did not attend all of the meetings of the pre-budget consultations. Of course, those were public meetings.
As I tried to explain to Mr. Lukiwski--and I'm not sure if I can find the right words to appropriately describe my actions or my feelings--my actions were not based on a premeditated...trying to gain anything personally. My actions effectively were based on a lack of respect of confidentiality.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
But what was it about the report? I still can't get it. Why did you send it to the lobbyist? Was it important?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
That's about six times for that question.
Since we're running out of time, Mr. Lukiwski, and you think you have one more, let's do it.
