Evidence of meeting #55 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was political.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
A recorded vote, please, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Sure. All in favour as it is written?
(Paragraph 37 agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
We're on paragraph 38.
There has already been a bit of a discussion on an amendment to 38. I think we inserted the word “departmental” in English, instead of the word “administrative”.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
On a point of order, did we actually insert that? Because that was part of a motion--
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Sorry. There was a suggestion that it happen, so at this moment I'll give it to you, Mr. Reid.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have no thoughts on the French version, but in the English version I think the word “administrative” should be removed and the word “departmental” inserted. If it's acceptable, perhaps I'll just talk to my motion a little.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
The point here is a desire to be as precise as possible. Mr. Walsh used the word “departmental” a number of times, and not the word “administrative”. The danger would be if you have “political”, “administrative”, and “departmental” all being used. In that case, you would start running into confusion, getting the idea that there might be three kinds of decision-making processes when in fact there are only two: the departmental decision, in this case a memorandum submitted to the minister; and a political decision made by the minister.
I'm a little frustrated. This is my own fault, I suppose, for not having caught it earlier. In paragraph 33, the word “political” has quotes around it and I feel a bit like I do when people raise their fingers and do the air quotes. It means that somehow “political” isn't “political”, and we're using this word precisely, because some other word is actually meant. That is problematic. However, it's done correctly this time.
I don't know how one would do this. I might ask the permission of the committee to return to paragraph 33 and remove the quotes around “political” so that political is seen as being truly political, and not illegitimately political, which is the implication of the word when it has the quotes around it back in paragraph 33.
At any rate, putting in “political decision” and “departmental decision” helps to clear things up.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
You asked about returning to a previous paragraph. I'm guessing that this would require unanimous consent from this committee.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Yes, and I'm also in the middle of something else, so I can wait on that one until a later point and deal with it then.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The point that Mr. Reid raises is certainly relevant. It was Mr. Laframboise who brought this little problem up first. It is quite significant, addressing as it does the decision-making process. It seems more appropriate to me to talk about a departmental decision than an administrative decision. That goes along with Mr. Reid's remarks. Often, and certainly in the case of foreign affairs and international assistance, we hear “department” in English, for which the French translation is “ministère”.
As we have seen, if the minister makes a decision, it becomes a departmental decision. The text clearly shows how that differs from a political one. In this case, it seems clear to me that it was a departmental decision, because the minister, of course, is an integral part of the department she heads. As she herself has said that there was no interference, this was a departmental decision. In a word, I support the corrections and the definition of the word “ministérielle“.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I want to make some of the same points.
Back in paragraph 30, you see that both Ms. Biggs and Minister Oda alluded to the funding becoming the decision of the agency and the government. I think it's important, as Mr. Walsh points out in paragraph 38, that the distinction be made there. We could argue whether it should be “departmental” or “agency”, but it's better than simply “administrative”. It also goes to the heart of what paragraph 33—now left in—clearly identifies. This is especially clear in the last part of that paragraph, where it points out that she said that the Kairos proposal was her decision. It then becomes the department's decision as well as the government's. I think it tightens up the whole argument that we've been trying to make throughout the course of the hearings, and indeed since we decided to study the draft report.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
Mr. Chair, I appreciate my colleague Mr. Blaney speaking about les décisions ministérielles and suggesting that....
I just want to ask about this. In English the terms would be “department” and “minister”. We've stopped using the term “ministry” federally. Provincially in Ontario I think we still talk about the ministry of this, the ministry of that. The Ministry of Natural Resources comes to mind. In French you're talking about le ministre and le ministère.
When you refer to une décision ministérielle, is it going to be clear...?
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
As Madame Ratansi's mother pointed out, I haven't got that much in there.
I'm worried that if we use the term--and I guess I'm asking for clarification on this ministérielle--will it be clear that it is effectively an advisory opinion of departmental officials to the minister, as opposed to being a minister's actual decision made on a political basis? That's a very important distinction and a different question from the one that comes up in English, but of a similar nature when we are thinking of it in terms of trying to provide maximum clarity.
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
I can't remember exactly if the parliamentary legal adviser used the words “political decision” and “administrative decision”. I'm trying to understand what decisions he's talking about. Is he referring to “political decision” as ministerial versus departmental?
I wonder if the analyst could shed any light on that.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
I am looking for an answer to my question first about the use of ministérielle.
Conservative
Conservative
