Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 16th, 2013

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

The last thought is, can you submit in writing—because I don't think you've quite done it here, and municipal boundaries are a little confusing in Saskatchewan—a specific proposal to move this municipality but not that one so that we can have an exact map and exact population figures?

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I will give you an exact proposal. I will not go totally by pure municipal boundaries because the local election polls tend to be drawn up by where people go to get their mail, rather than by their rural municipality. It generally works better for people in Saskatchewan to vote where they get their mail, not where their municipal boundaries are.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It's not for us to dictate what you submit to us, but I'm just asking that you submit—

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I will submit that, and I can have it to the committee by the end of the week with the population figures proposed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

The sooner, the better, we're trying to start that report.

After Mr. Reid, we have Mr. Cullen, for five minutes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

A quick question to you all. When the commission toured Saskatchewan, did any of you testify in front of the commission?

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I did not.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Vellacott and Ms. Block?

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I have my presentation, if you care to read it.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have a question. If I could classify these—and forgive me for the crude classification—Mr. Trost and Ms. Block have accepted the maps, more or less, but want some changes to the maps you see; moving one community here, another community across the river, trying to identify those communities of interest. Is that a fair characterization?

I want to start with the two of you first.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I would say that's a fair characterization. I may not like the maps, but I understand that fundamentally this is roughly what the outlines are going to be, so let's work with it.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, and I saw Ms. Block nodding, which may, for today, pass for agreement.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Let the record show, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vellacott and Ms. Yelich, I sensed in both of your testimonies not only a fundamental disagreement with the allowance for urban-only ridings, the moving away from only hybrid ridings, but also a fundamental, philosophical disagreement with the way the commission came to its conclusions. You both seem quite impassioned by the process. You talked about a lack of respect for those who testified.

Am I characterizing the two of your testimonies correctly? I don't want to mischaracterize—

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I would like to explain that. If you put up Lewvan, the riding of Regina, you will see that there's no way that the boundaries can change to accommodate the riding of Blackstrap, because the Blackstrap riding.... This is why I have presentations today from the Dakota Sioux, the Whitecap, which is less than 20 minutes outside of Saskatoon. Dundurn, which is the fastest-growing regional municipality, is right up to Saskatoon. This now is the urban centre of Moose Jaw, so the boundaries didn't change, and the new boundaries didn't accommodate the urban centre being Moose Jaw. The municipal maps go right around. Way up here is where...[Inaudible--Editor]....

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Ms. Yelich, we can't hear your testimony if you're standing up there.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

It's just impossible to have those boundaries. I would like to see the boundaries, as they did, because there were communities of interest, and that interests me. So, yes, I would like to see the.…

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Vellacott, I'm reflecting also on some earlier testimony from some of your colleagues as to the source of your frustration with the process, or the source of your frustration as to the results of the process to this point. You both mentioned the unprecedented nature of having a supplementary report. You suggested bias, I think, in your testimony, that at least one of the commissioners walked into the process with a bias toward the orientation of urban-rural and urban-only ridings.

Am I right on that?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Right, absolutely. I want to correct a slight distinction here because I think my colleagues over here are.... I'm probably more hopeful in some sense that there would still be a change back to tweaking at the edges, and so on, of the current boundaries as they presently are. I, as well, would agree to that as a bare minimum, so I don't think we're differing there.

But you're absolutely right. Mr. Courtney, no less, reputed scholar and so on, is reported to have had conversations around this place at the orientation, before having heard a word of testimony, that he was adamant or dogmatic to do urban-only ridings. That's not on, and it's not supposed to be the way the process is done.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The levelling of bias, and I don't know the source of the bias that you're suggesting, whether it's ideological, or political, I don't know and I'm not impugning it—

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I didn't use the word “bias”. I said a mindset, a predetermined approach to this whole thing by way of having urban. So I'm not saying bias so much. It's maybe an academic abstraction that he takes up on this.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Some of your colleagues...Mr. Clarke suggested that some of these ridings were gerrymandered. Do you agree with that statement?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I think there were two individuals. One in particular, Mr. Courtney, had obviously, as was reported at orientation sessions here, wanted to do urban-only, notwithstanding possibly he would change. I'm hopeful that he would. I think he's an honourable man and he can reverse himself. But if he's obstinate and obtuse, then there's a bare minimum that I would suggest, which is Silverwood’s coming into Saskatoon West, and the downtown going into Saskatoon—University.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I'd like to say no to that because I read the transcripts and they believed in urban ridings and they had no—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Sorry, Mr. Minister, if I could have it clear, you're saying they didn't gerrymander the ridings.