Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 16th, 2013

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Frankly, Nathan, I'm not going to comment on any of the other interventions or any of the testimony you may have heard.

I will say this, however, I do agree with one of the things one of my colleagues said that you may disagree with. I think there was some predisposition. I think the commissioners had their minds made up before they even heard one piece of evidence. However, having said that, quite frankly, while I strongly disagree with them, there's nothing wrong with that. There really isn't. That's their job.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Having an opinion.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Yes, that's their job.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Having some expertise as well.

Mr. Boughen, you said something about the commissioners, that they created boundaries contrary to their own beliefs. This was Commissioner Courtney in particular. If they were contrary to his beliefs, then where do we source this mindset, this predisposition, this bias from? If they're not his beliefs, what would they be?

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

When he says one thing in his book and says something else in the field, I think it raises the question, which way does the commissioner sit? Is he for it or is he against it? Is he for the maps or against the maps?

By the way, let me just put up the map on what I see happening as far as Palliser is concerned, if we can fire that up.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Just while we're pulling the Palliser map up, I want to be clear on what you're saying. Is it possible that he heard testimony that changed his opinion? If he said one thing prior—

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Could well be.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We're trying to source the bias. To make an accusation of a mindset—as Mr. Lukiwski and others have said—of a predisposition that.... What's the source of it? You're suggesting it's not ideological. It's not his actual thinking on the matter. What is the other source available to us? I mean, we're in politics—

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

It's nothing more or less than what he wrote, and I'm saying that what he wrote.... Is that his position prior to even serving on the commission? You know, the book was published long before he served on the commission. Did his work on the commission change his thought? Maybe, but he's entitled to that like anyone else.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is it possible that his opinion changed based on testimony he heard as a commissioner from people in Saskatchewan?

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I would suggest quite possible, sure.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

SUMA has come out in support of this. We've heard about all the different levels of support. My question to both of you is this. There's an aversion towards these ideas of rural versus the urban or urban-only seats for Saskatchewan. But yet we've also heard that this exists in the Saskatchewan legislature. There are provincial seats that are entirely urban and that works well. Would you agree with that?

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Well to be honest, I'm not sure because I don't sit with the legislators in Regina.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But you know them.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Yes, I know of them and I know many of them personally. Does it work for them? Certainly it seems to work for them. Will it work for us? I don't know. It's not there yet.

But what I'm saying in our submission is that there seems to be an overriding thought that umbrellas the whole commission, that you can't have urban and rural mixed. I'm saying in Saskatchewan, there's no difference. When the kids get out to play hockey and it's 30 below, it's 30 below in Regina and it's 30 below in East Overshoe. I mean, it's cold, but people get their car warmed up and away they go. Saskatchewan now has a whole different concept in terms of entertainment, in terms of electrical, power, everything.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Lukiwski, you seem to have taken a certain prairie pragmatism to the maps. You've chosen to make suggestions to the maps. You seem to have conceded the idea that this is likely what the maps are going to look like for Saskatchewan and you're suggesting some changes to those maps. Am I—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Dion, you have five minutes please.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you.

Please....

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I won't take it out of your time. I'll even give it back to Nathan. I'll be really nice.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Tom, you may answer too.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Yes, a couple of things.

First I'll go back to what you were saying before. You asked Mr. Boughen about how Professor Courtney and Justice Mills came up with this urban-only concept. They had it right from the outset and they state so in the commission report. They reiterate this by saying that after they received the first 200 submissions, the indication served to confirm the commission's initial thoughts. They said that they were predisposed. They felt the time had come, similar to the 2002 commission that initially proposed urban-only seats. This commission at the outset felt that the time had come, so that's what their mindset was going in.

Even though I disagree with it, that's their opinion and that's what they were charged with the responsibility of doing.

In answer to your second question, Nathan, about the provincial scene, you have to realize that there are 58—going on to be 63—seats in Saskatchewan provincially as opposed to 14 seats here. So it's quite easy to have urban-only configurations when you have that many ridings.

Here with only 14 representing a million people—slightly over a million people now—for the last hundred years we've had 80 years of hub and spoke that's worked very well for the province. That's why I still think it's the best way. But I do agree with your last statement that I believe the commission is bound and determined to have urban-only seats, and if that's the case, I'm making a suggestion to improve it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Now we'll start with Mr. Dion.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Mr. Lukiwski is done—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We're still going to finish on the bottom of the hour here, folks.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

You said that you want to be realistic and even though you disagree respectfully with the commissioners, you are proposing changes. I would be very pleased to focus only on that, but I cannot be mute about what has been said about this commissioner, which I find very unfair. You have a great political scientist in your province, Professor Courtney, and for someone to change his mind, there's nothing bad in that. We always change our minds.

He wrote this book in 2002. He has been a commissioner. He focused more on the issue than ever before in his life, and he came with a suggestion that it would be good to have five urban-only ridings out of fourteen. If you look around in Canada, it looks like what we have elsewhere. It's not something so odd. You have many people in Saskatchewan supporting it. Many people desiring it, but very few people questioning the honesty of the commissioners.

You have the Regina Public Schools board, the Regina Catholic School Division, the Saskatoon school board. You have the division between the Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities Association and the Saskatoon Association of Rural Municipalities, and councillors and mayors all over the place about this issue. So it's very difficult for this committee to conclude that the commissioners are completely wrong, and that we need to start from nothing and start with a new map.

Now in your proposal, how many ridings exactly are affected?