Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll suspend for a minute while you're looking at it.

Thank you very much for coming today.

Thank you.

We'll call the meeting back to order.

We have another great panel of colleagues with us today.

Mr. Toone has spent some time with us at this committee so he knows how much fun we have here. We also have Mr. Fortin and Mr. Caron. Thank you all for coming.

I understand your presentations today are simply name changes. Although I'll give you five minutes each, if you could try to do it in less than that it would be appreciated and if we have any short questions we'll quickly ask them.

Mr. Caron, do you want to go first?

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I want to thank the committee members.

The request before you concerns only a name change. I have prepared a document that has been distributed to you.

The electoral district of Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques will not change. We are obviously very satisfied with that. However, it is proposed in both the first and second reports that the name be Rimouski, which is a problem given the historical and cultural aspects of the riding. It is a very large riding including the three RCMs of Rimouski-Neigette, Témiscouata and Les Basques. However, the people of Témiscouata and the RCM of Les Basques identify more, historically and culturally, with Rivière-du-Loup, which is closer to Rimouski.

This name is a problem because, although Rimouski is the largest municipality in the riding, it is also the most remote, situated in the far eastern portion of the district. Five minutes to the east of Rimouski, you leave the riding. Following the second report by the commission members, I consulted with the three wardens of the RCMs, those of Témiscouata, Les Basques and Rimouski-Neigette, and the mayor of Rimouski to determine whether there was some way to find a compromise solution.

The commission members want the names to be geographical, but also shorter than they currently are, and the name Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques is the fourth longest in Canada by a number of letters. After the consultation, we proposed a compromise. The three wardens and the mayor of Rimouski have agreed on the name Centre-du-Bas-Saint-Laurent.

The Bas-Saint-Laurent region consists of eight RCMs, including Rimouski-Neigette, Témiscouata and Les Basques. Three other RCMs lie to the east and two more to the west. We are therefore really situated in the centre of Bas-Saint-Laurent. Consequently, the name is entirely appropriate and, I think, meets the criteria the commission members seem to be using. That is why this name is being suggested.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Excellent.

Monsieur Fortin, would you like to go ahead?

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Good afternoon. I would like to thank the committee members for their work, which is important in the circumstances.

First of all, I would like to recall that one of the four electoral districts in eastern Quebec disappeared when the commission members' first report was tabled. However, we are very pleased to see that the riding has been restored in the second report, particularly since the district that was doomed to disappear was mine. It is all the more interesting to see that the communities' arguments have been heard.

However, there has been an exchange, a slight change between the present situation and the scenario proposed in the second report. In fact, my present electoral district, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, will lose the RCM of Haute-Gaspésie, which will be transferred to the electoral district of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine. The RCM of Avignon, which is currently part of the district of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, will be added to the present electoral district. That district will therefore consist of four RCMs, Avignon, La Mitis, Matane and Matapédia. In the second report, the commission members suggest the name Avignon-Matane. Two of the four RCMs are thus excluded from the present name, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, which is quite long.

We tried to find a name that could suit the four RCMs, Avignon, La Mitis, Matane and Matapédia. We looked for a name that would have a unifying effect and be consistent with the commission members' wish to shorten the names of electoral districts. As you know, eastern Quebec currently has three electoral districts with the longest names in Canada.

However, no suggestion was made about what might bring those four RCMs together. The reasons are quite clear, particularly the fact that they belong to two different administrative territories, Gaspésie and Bas-Saint-Laurent. That means that the names Bas-Saint-Laurent-Est and Gaspésie-Ouest were not suitable. When we visited all the RCMs, they told us that, of two evils, that is to say the desire to be recognized by their name and the absence of any uniform character that might unify the four territories, they would choose the lesser.

As you have read in the letter I sent to the clerk, Ms. Renaud, containing all the arguments, following a consultation, it was proposed that the future electoral district be named Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia. Haute-Gaspésie would therefore be dropped from the present name and replaced by that of the new RCM that would be added. This is a conclusion that we reached following consultations with all players, including the RCMs and stakeholders in the field.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Monsieur Toone.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the committee members for their work and their patience. You have to hear our concerns frequently. I know it may seem long, but we appreciate it. I would also like to acknowledge the commission's work.

As my colleague from the neighbouring riding has said, we asked commission members to preserve an electoral district in Bas-Saint-Laurent, Est du Québec and Gaspésie-les-Îles, and they agreed to that request. I understand that it was a difficult compromise at times. We appreciate the fact that they found a way to preserve the riding of Matane, the full name of which remains to be determined. We are definitely very grateful for the work they have done and we applaud them.

I would like to point out that two RCMs have been particularly affected, including Haute-Gaspésie. According to the warden and some mayors I consulted, people are absolutely delighted to join the electoral district of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine. I cannot say that people in the RCM of Avignon are delighted, but they accept the compromise. They are grateful that a riding has been preserved. They note and appreciate that fact. Once again, we thank the members of the commission.

As for the name—that is why I am here today, particularly for the people of the Magdalen Islands—following the consultations that were held in the region, people called for the status quo and asked that the name remain "Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine", rather than "Gaspésie-les-Îles", as proposed by the commission. That is mainly because the Magdalen Islands are an isolated and remote region.

With regard to the designation "les-Îles", people do not necessarily understand what region one is talking about. The names of several ridings include the word "Îles". There is Laval-les-Îles, the "Mille-Îles" in the St. Lawrence River and so on. There are many islands in Canada and talking about "Gaspésie-les-Îles" could cause confusion.

The riding's present name is also part of the region's culture. We increasingly try to focus on a single name, "Îles-de-la-Madeleine", for reasons of marketing, knowledge of the region's tourism industry, seafood products and so on. We are trying to agree on a single name, "Îles-de-la-Madeleine". Changing the riding's name could be confusing and raise a barrier to what the people of the region are trying to do, which is to focus on a single name, "Îles-de-la-Madeleine".

According to the criteria with which the commission members are required to work, the name of an electoral district must be amended in the event of a significant change, but the change was frankly not very significant. Of course, the boundaries of two RCMs have changed. There has therefore been a change in that regard. However, there has been no change to the Magdalen Islands, and the people in the region would prefer to retain the name "Îles-de-la-Madeleine" in the name of the riding. The municipality has approved a resolution to that effect.

I submitted a written brief on the subject to you in late March. If you do not have it, I will be pleased to provide you with copies. The arguments set forth in it are more elaborate than what I have just presented to you. To summarize, the idea is to agree on a name and to give Magdalen Islanders the necessary support by choosing the name "Îles-de-la-Madeleine", rather than the familiar version, "Les-Îles".

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Merci.

We have time for some short questions.

Mr. Reid, you have a couple of minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question concerns only the names under consideration.

I find the three proposals that were presented very reasonable. I believe that a very long name is not that bad in itself. For example, "Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia" has 35 characters. There are 25 in "Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine". I am talking about the status quo. "Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques" has 37 characters and "Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington", my riding, has 32.

I would like to add a brief note concerning the Magdalen Islands. At the time of the last redistribution, it was suggested that the name of my electoral district be changed to "Lanark and the Lakes". The people living in the region covered by "the Lakes", that is to say the ridings of Frontenac, Lennox and Addington, were not very happy with the change. That is why I understand the feelings of the people living in the Magdalen Islands.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Aubin, you have the floor.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the requests are reasonable.

I have a specific question concerning the riding of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine. Is that name used frequently in other circumstances, in tourism brochures, for example? That would help understand the confusion that might be caused.

[Philip Toone, NDP, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Federal government authorities use the name "Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine". I am thinking, in particular, of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and Service Canada. The Association touristique régionale des Îles-de-la-Madeleine—there are many ATRs in Quebec—has been asking for years that people focus on the name "Îles-de-la-Madeleine", not on the familiar version, "Les Îles".

The municipality uses "Îles-de-la-Madeleine", as do the federal and provincial governments. This is increasingly how the Magdalen Islands are recognized.

So we would ask the commission, which we will be contacting in the next few days, not to block this emerging consensus. We ask the committee to support that consensus and allow it to expand even further.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Monsieur Dion, do you have anything on this?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Yes, I would like to add something very briefly, Mr. Chair.

As mentioned, this is about names. I do not believe this is very controversial. I very much like the idea of keeping the name "Îles-de-la-Madeleine". That way we know what islands we are talking about. There are so many in that area.

Mr. Fortin, the length of the name will no doubt be the only reason why the commission may be reluctant. We always think of the people who have to pronounce the names of members' electoral districts one after another, and the longer the name is, the more complicated it becomes. In fact, that should be an inducement to switch to electronic voting, particularly when there are 338 members. Just imagine.

So if you could remove one of the four names without causing a problem—

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

No.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

No, all four are really necessary?

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

There are really four very distinct RCMs with their own characteristics. So removing one of the four names would cause prejudice, as would not recognizing two of those RCMs in the proposed name Avignon—Matane.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

All right, but you realize that you are very often called the member for Haute-Gaspésie and are given all kinds of other names.

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

The Speakers of the House have learned over time, but sometimes they have to use a short form.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

All right.

On the other hand, Mr. Caron, you are headed in the opposite direction. You are saying that we can shorten the name. You propose that it be the electoral district of Centre-du-Bas-Saint-Laurent. That is very "wardenish". Have you consulted people other than wardens?

It seems to me your riding extends very far. Some communities in your riding find it hard to imagine that they form the centre of that region.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

In fact, the present situation in eastern Quebec is a bit strange. The electoral district of Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques is surrounded by the ridings of Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup and Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia.

You can clearly see why the commission members wanted to have shorter names. I think there were one or two exceptions in Quebec. However, that was what the commission members wanted, and I understand that they have the final say. Consequently, even the recommendations that the committee may make could be ruled invalid if they are not consistent with the commission members' wishes.

However, unlike my colleague François Lapointe from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, we have the good fortune to have the three RCMs entirely in Bas-Saint-Laurent. Mr. Fortin's riding overlaps part of Gaspésie, whereas that of Mr. Lapointe overlaps part of Chaudière-Appalaches. So the name "Bas-Saint-Laurent" is entirely appropriate. If we say "Centre-du-Bas-Saint-Laurent", that is just to mention that there are two RCMs, Kamouraska and Rivière-du-Loup, to the west, and three RCMs, La Mitis, Matane and Matapédia, to the east. So the three RCMs are actually at the centre of the Bas-Saint-Laurent region. It is entirely a matter of geography.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Consequently, the people of Matapédia view themselves as being at the centre of the lower St. Lawrence region.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

No, Matapédia is in the electoral district—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Pardon me, I meant Neigette or—

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

It is Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques.