Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

The reason I brought up that point in my speech was the importance of appearing and having the discussions throughout the process. We would have concerns if there were an 11th-hour pitch to change things that would have cascading effects throughout the north.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. Perfect. Thank you.

I just want to be clear about this. A similar situation happened vis-à-vis the boundary between my own riding. What was Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington will become Lanark—Frontenac and the City of Kingston. Ted Hsu, the MP to the south of me, did not appear at the boundaries commissions hearings because no changes were made to his boundary. When he came here—and I did a presentation side by side with him—I made a point of saying that I thought it was perfectly reasonable for him not to appear. Who would appear when it appears that nothing is going to change and the commission is leaving your boundaries alone? That has been a pattern that is widespread and is perfectly reasonable.

Therefore, I want to ask Mr. Hayes the question. Am I correct that the initial boundaries did not change your riding in any way?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That is correct.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. The second question I want to ask is about Mr. Thibeault's concern that there will be cascading effects on other areas. Am I correct that this is not in fact what you're proposing? Your change would result in Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing being below the 25%, which is normally the cut-off, but no other riding would be changed. There would be no cascades.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That is absolutely correct.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you. I wanted to get that clear.

I did some math. I just took the boundaries originally proposed by the commission, and then I subtracted the past population of your riding from what it is now under the proposed changes. I added that number to Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, with the result that they go from 79,801 down to 72,984. Is that, in fact, the population you're suggesting for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That is the current population, and that is what I'm suggesting, given its size. I believe we should invoke that rule.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

All right.

I have limited time, which is why I keep hustling along all the people who are answering.

Just to be clear about this, northern Ontario has always been a vexing problem for the Ontario commissioners. This time around as well as last time around, the obvious problem has been how do you deal with the fact that you have such an enormous swath of territory? The second problem they have is that this is not the same as the problem you face with a rural riding like the one I have in southern Ontario, which is very large—not by your standards, but by the standards of, say, Toronto—and also populated throughout. I gather that in the north you have two kinds of ridings. You have the ones that have some agriculture, but you also have cities of very substantial sizes, which, in the end, will constitute the lion's share of a particular riding. Other ridings have vast amounts of space and extremely widely spread communities that are sometimes only accessible by water and air.

Am I correct in asserting that your riding—which would now, under the change that you're proposing, still be below the provincial average but be closer—is essentially an urban riding with a rural outlying area, and Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing for the most part is a riding consisting of widely scattered communities without a very large urban centre?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That would be correct, yes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. What I'm getting at here is that it seems to me that there is a reason for the commission to consider that in the very largest ridings, of which there are really only four in northern Ontario, it might be reasonable to go beyond the 25% to make such a declaration.

I want to ask if you are explicitly recommending that they invoke this particular part of the act that allows them to go beyond the 25% number, in the case of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I am explicitly recommending that, sir, yes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Perfect.

Madame Latendresse to start, for seven minutes in total.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses who testified today.

I would like to better understand what happened at the special meeting, at the public consultation that was held in Sault Ste. Marie. Were changes to the electoral map proposed?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Yes.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Hayes, when the meeting in Sault Ste. Marie was held, did the proposal on the table affect your riding?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes, that affected my riding. The new proposal on the table would remove a portion of my riding, about 7,000 constituents. I'm at 89,000, and it was going to remove a portion of the riding of Sault Ste. Marie, down to 82,000. Those constituents would be placed in the adjacent riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

As Mr. Reid mentioned, one of the problems in northern Ontario is that it is difficult to find a balance and to get all of the ridings as close as possible to the quotient, but still having a relatively reasonable geographic size. Mr. Angus's riding is obviously an exception. The problem is that the commission managed to find a way for all of the ridings concerned—except Kenora—to respect the limit set out in legislation, which is 25%. That is the situation.

Mr. Hayes, you proposed that Ms. Hughes' riding exceed the limit. I think that her riding currently has 74,000 people. The 25% limit, for Ontario, would be 79,000 people. Is that true?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Let's very clearly understand why I'm proposing that. It's because this is the request of the constituents who are being removed from the riding of Sault Ste. Marie. They are impacted. Sault Ste. Marie is very clearly their community of interest. As the commission stated, because of everything that happened it was going to leave things as the status quo except for a minor adjustment.

As far as I'm concerned, it should have left things as the status quo. It was perfectly fine before for the riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing to have the population it did. I believe it's geographically large enough that it should fall under that same component.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

There is something else that is very important to us. There must be a consultation among MPs and colleagues, and we want everyone's support. I understand that your proposal would have us exceed the limit in the legislation, but you also do not have Ms. Hughes' support for your proposed changes.

Is that true?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

In all honesty, Madam Hughes actually recommended that herself in one of her proposals to the commission, so she was supportive of it at one time.

It was the commission that said that it's not possible. So I guess my challenge is to the commission. Why isn't it possible, given the geographic size of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing?

Madam Hughes supported that at one point in time, and I would like to see her support it today.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I will let Ms. Hughes respond.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Sure.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I simply want to add the following.

In the beginning, I asked for an exemption at all of the sessions. The commission's representatives kept telling us that their mandate did not allow them to grant another exemption to any riding in northern Ontario. That is what they told us.

When it was a matter of the communities in the riding of Sault Ste. Marie, I told them that if I could not get an exemption, their second suggestion would surely be the best for the riding to ensure that people are properly represented.

As I said, we do not expect people to come into the office, because the distances are long. As a result, my assistants travel to the communities to hold community meetings.

That said, I spoke to the mayor of St. Joseph Island. He wanted his city to remain in the riding of Sault Ste. Marie, and that was mentioned to the commission. However, I have always maintained that the best solution was the status quo.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I have a very simple question for Mr. Aspin.

Approximately how many people will your proposal affect?