Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm inviting Mr. Scott to contribute anything he may wish on this subject.

Look, we're having a debate here that I think misses the point. At the bottom of page 5 and the beginning of page 6, the commission devotes three paragraphs to the subject of invoking the extraordinary allowance beyond the 25% number, as permitted by the act. The commission recognizes that the act does not specify that you can have only one such riding per province. They go on and give some explanation and then say that the decision for Kenora is consistent with the emphasis of the act on manageable geographic size for sparsely populated rural northern regions. There is no need to make further use of the extraordinary circumstance rule.

There have been discussions about whether they're married to that. I would suggest to the committee that we'll find out whether they're married to it if we make a recommendation to them to change it. They either will accept the unanimous view of this panel of MPs, or they will say no, that they stand by what they said earlier. The way to find out is to ask them, and that's what I would encourage the committee to consider doing in its report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

As Chair, would the panel here be unanimous in having this committee ask for what Mr. Hayes has suggested?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I want to indicate that we certainly had asked for this throughout the process, and the commission was very clear to us at each of the hearings that this was not an option for them, that they didn't have the mandate. What I would caution you on, or what I want to introduce, is something that I said to Mr. Dion.

If you're indicating that you're going to leave the status quo, then there will be a ripple effect on Thunder Bay as well, because Manitouwadge and Pic Mobert were actually cut out of this new proposal and put into the Thunder Bay riding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

If we're for the status quo, wouldn't it leave your riding as it was?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

But it will now affect the population base in Thunder Bay. That's what I'm saying.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

All right, so we would need to know that was happening.

Mr. Angus, be very quick.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The one thing the committee has heard about from all of us is the issue of serviceability in such a massive rural region. Kenora has the exemption. Kenora and my riding are the only ones with special fly-in communities, but I also have an urban base.

The issue is that we were told it wasn't possible. I don't know why it's not possible. It was frustrating, because we felt that it was a clear message. We weren't asking for it in each of our ridings; we were saying that we had one large rural riding. We asked for it. We were told no. But it is perfectly reasonable to ask the commission to look at that, and then we will live with the results.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We believe as a committee we have super powers, so we'll try.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I know, Mr. Reid, you have a confused look on your face. What you're hearing about right now is that the northeastern side of Ontario and the effects that are happening there. We can't forget that Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing also affects and hits Thunder Bay—Superior North.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

The part that is confusing me is this, Mr. Thibeault, and maybe you can explain it, or Ms. Hughes could unconfuse me.

I've recognized that Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing describes a horseshoe around Sault Ste. Marie, but what I don't see is how Thunder Bay is affected. If only the boundary between Sault Ste. Marie and Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing were adjusted, that would cause AMK to drop below the 25%. But no point of its border with Thunder Bay—Superior North would undermine the change in the proposal.

How again does it affect the population of Thunder Bay—Superior North? That is still still unclear to me.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

If you want to maintain the status quo, that will be the population that would remain in Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing. The commission has removed two communities from my riding and put them into Thunder Bay, which means that if you removed that population base from the Sault, I would be even lower than the amount you're quoting now.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm sorry, I should skip back to Mr. Hayes and ask him if he was talking about making that change as well, or if he was only talking about—

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Initially, I wasn't considering that change, because, quite frankly, it didn't affect my riding. Hearing the arguments, I think we'd probably have to make that change, and Manitouwadge and the other small one would have to go back to Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

And that would raise Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing above the number that I quoted to you of—

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes, I think it would bring them up to 74,000, or something like that.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It's about 1,100 people all told, to 2,000?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I believe so. I'm going by memory.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Forgive me, but what would that drop the population of Thunder Bay—Superior North to? Does anybody know?

Actually, I know, because I happen to have the report here. On page 74, it says the population there is currently 82,827. It would go down to more or less 81,000, something like that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We're talking about 2,000 people. Am I right, Mrs. Hughes?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Yes. I don't have the exact number but I'm inclined to think it's probably a couple of thousand. Again, this is the ripple effect.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

But now I understand what the ripple effect we're talking about is.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Where would that put Thunder Bay in percentage terms after that? I've always said that I wanted to keep Manitouwadge and Pic Mobert. I know there were over 70 submissions from Manitouwadge saying that they wanted to stay in Thunder Bay, and Pic Mobert said that they wanted to stay in Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, because they're closely tied to White River for their economic activities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We're talking of the status quo. It's where it is today.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Where it is right now as of the boundaries they currently represent with their current population. Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Right, absolutely. So if we ask for the exemption and ask for the status quo, we would get exactly—