Evidence of meeting #37 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was move.
A video is available from Parliament.
Mike MacPherson Legislative Clerk, House of Commons
It wasn't identical. It just had a line conflict, so we still have to vote on it. It is deemed moved.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
I'll get to amendment PV-53 right after we vote on amendment BQ-5.
On amendment BQ-5, all those in favour?
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We're on amendment PV-53.
Ms. May.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
On the same area, financing of election campaigns, this amendment speaks to the changes in Bill C-23 that substantially increase the donation that a candidate can make to their own campaign. Much as Mr. Scott noted what it means that wealthier people can donate more, I think the personal financial situation of a candidate is even more relevant.
We want Canadians of all walks of life to be able to run for Parliament on an equal playing field. Bill C-23 as now written allows a candidate to be able to increase their own donation from $1,200 to $5,000, and for party leadership candidates, from $1,200 to $25,000. These changes substantially increase the ability of wealthier Canadians to put themselves forward within their political party for leadership and on the hustings as a candidate for Parliament.
The effect of my amendment, as recommended by the organization Democracy Watch, is to delete these increases that disproportionately benefit the wealthy.
Conservative
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's on this one, yes.
To the government, if anyone would be kind enough to answer through you, Chair, I'm not aware that the Chief Electoral Officer or anybody else made these recommendations for increases. Can the government give us some indication of where these great ideas came from to bring more money in?
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—and then $5,000 to $25,000...? That's inflation? It's inflated, all right. I don't know about inflation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
I know I made the mistake of letting you ask questions across the table. It's always a mistake when the chair lets you do it. Please, through the chair, if you would, so we don't get into accusing each other of things.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I just wanted to underscore that it's a silly answer.
It looks like Mr. Lukiwski is going to give us—I hope—a good one.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
If you recall, David, one of the problems we've had in the past, and particularly in leadership campaigns with respect to the Liberal Party, is unpaid loans. We still have loans going back to 2006, where they haven't contributed themselves but they've taken out loans and never paid them back, which in fact should be a de facto contribution. If nothing else, if that's going to continue, this at least allows the leadership contestant to contribute to his own campaign, and we get out of the loan business, at least up to that limit.
Now, some may argue that it's too much money. Leadership campaigns for a federal party cost a lot of money. Everyone knows that, so $25,000 I think is a legitimate threshold. You're probably going to spend far in excess of that if you're a serious candidate, but at least this gives an opportunity for a candidate at that level to kickstart it with a contribution of his own.
At the local level, frankly, I don't know how many candidates would contribute up to $5,000. Most battles are funded through contributions by supporters and everything else. I just think that these are acceptable amounts.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
All right, but here's the thing. I don't disagree with the idea that there was a bit of a shell game with the previous Liberal leadership; we've been around that many times. Yes, that didn't work. That stunk. But I have to tell you that turning around and making it easier for anybody to use bigger amounts of money, regardless of what it's for in our system, is going in the wrong direction.
One of the things that was great about our system, and still is to some degree—now we're on that slippery slope, though—is that an ordinary person can get involved in politics and can actually get elected and take a seat. Down in the States, that is not easy at all. If you're not independently wealthy, you had better have good friends who are independently wealthy. We're starting down that road, and it's the wrong direction.
Thanks, Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Mr. Reid? I have about a half a second here before I have to go on to something else.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON
The point of not allowing big money into campaigns is to prevent people from being corrupted by the influence of others. You're not going to be corrupted by your own influence. If you can't have at least $5,000 to launch a leadership campaign, then it's going to be very difficult to do even the basic things—the long-distance calls, the basic mailings—to get started. It actually would wind up handicapping people who are not already an inside candidate, so I think it just opens up the gates a little more freely.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
If I might, first of all, my first point was that nobody recommended it and I didn't hear where it came from, other than, again, that the government thinks it's a great idea. The fact is that it's more money that individuals can bring to the political system. That goes against the philosophical foundation of our system and it's just wrong. It's just wrong.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
On PV-53, those in favour?
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
With about a minute left, I'd like to ask the members, while we still can before five o'clock, if you have anything left in the stack of motions or amendments that you'd like tell us now you'd like removed, it would make life a lot easier.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
No, but occasionally as we got to numbers, you've declined to move them.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
That's right, but that's been based on the flow, so we can pull them as we go.