Evidence of meeting #80 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gift.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Milliken  Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

11:40 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I must say I was unaware of this restriction on receiving gifts, because it was something that was always happening. Before I was Speaker, I'd go to a reception and it was free. There were sometimes two or three in one evening. Free food was offered at the receptions. There were nibblies; you'd eat stuff, and you might eat enough that you didn't have to go for dinner. This sort of thing goes on big time in Ottawa, and I was unaware that you weren't supposed to receive this kind of gift. I thought it was just standard practice that happened in this city, in Parliament. People want to get parliamentarians out to talk to them, to try to persuade them to look at some issue and deal with it in a different way or to do something about it to fix the problem, or whatever. They do it over a social thing, and they might give you a little booklet or something at the end that sets out their position, or a bundle of papers that set out their position. How much are those worth? I haven't the faintest idea. I wouldn't think much. Often I'd go home, skim through them, and chuck them.

You get all kinds of things like that, and they come to your office and leave you a package of paper stuff, and sometimes now discs with things on them. In my view, that's not something you need to have appraised and then declare as a gift. To me, it's fair enough that people want to give you something to remind you of what they did or remind you that you were at their event or that they want you to read something about what they're doing. I don't know why you'd have to declare that or why you'd have to worry about the value of it, unless it was over $500 or some fairly high figure. Then you would have to declare it, because you'd be getting something that presumably you could sell or otherwise dispose of, unless it was a hugely expensive meal or reception you'd gone to.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Scott.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

I'll pass.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Madame Latendresse.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I have a question about the recommendations made by Commissioner Dawson to regulate partisan conduct. I think that, in general, this could be quite difficult to do. Do you believe that it would be possible or necessary to establish a particular provision in this respect in an ethics code like the one that we are currently assessing?

11:45 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I don't know why she proposed something like this. In my opinion, these statements are not really partisan, unless the whips issue a directive to all MPs to declare or not declare that they attended certain events, or anything else.

If the basic amount for declarations is $500, in my opinion, there would be no partisan component because the amount is normally obvious and everyone must declare that. It's possible that one party realizes the value of a gift and another hasn't understood it. That could seem a bit partisan, but if that's the case, there would need to be an indication that everyone else must file the same declaration, because they have received the same gift.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I would like to clarify one thing. In fact, it was not a recommendation about gifts or declaring gifts that are received. Rather, it was about a possible change to the code of conduct in general, to manage MPs' behaviour, and to try to avoid having MPs act in an overly partisan manner in some situations.

It was supported by certain witnesses who appeared before us. Others said that it wasn't necessary to do that or that it would be too complicated or that partisanship was really an intrinsic part of our parliamentary system.

Since you are a former Speaker of the House, who is obliged to be neutral, I think it would be interesting to have your opinion on that.

11:45 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I'm surprised that such a problem existed. I hadn't realized that. The rules apply to all members from all parties. This proposal aims to strengthen the rules that are applied to everyone, not only to one party.

I'm a little bit surprised that there is this partisanship. An MP might know something that was done to an MP from another party. Maybe there is partisanship because he indicated to the commissioner that it was another party who arranged things rather than another MP. I don't know.

In my opinion, the position is not a partisan one and the work is not done in a partisan fashion either. The idea is to determine if the declarations are correct and if the rules are applied fairly to all MPs. In my opinion, the system is working quite well in that respect.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

I'm finished.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. MacKenzie.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Speaker, when you sit here and listen to the questions, sometimes I'm sure it begs the question, “How did we get here?” It seems we developed a code of conduct and now we want to build on it. But I don't know that any of us have heard of problems with the existing code of conduct. Sometimes I think we create our own problems when we add something that may not have needed to be there.

One of the things you maybe heard today is that the “public” wants. You've been out of this House for three and a half years, or a little longer than that now. Have you heard the public clamouring for more openness from members of Parliament, in what they do and what their personal life is?

11:45 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Do you know of any other body that must list all of their assets and debts in excess of $10,000 in a public document?

11:50 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

No—but then I don't enquire about that. I certainly haven't had to do it anywhere else.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

My suggestion to you is that members of Parliament are open about a great deal of things in a more open fashion by legislation than most other bodies are. I don't know whether or not the judiciary are in that position, but many of us in this place have no direct influence on what occurs with respect to commerce. We may have collectively, but not on an individual basis. I think sometimes we get ourselves thinking too deep into some of these issues.

In your comments with respect to the $500 and that being brought in, I think it was more like 12 or 14 years ago. Instead of it going down, maybe we should be looking at it moving up. It's because we get “introverted” into this whole thing that we think, well, we have to get lower and lower. Maybe that's not the real answer. If we haven't had problems, I'm not sure what we're trying to fix.

I look at you as having been non-partisan in the time I was here. You were elected in that role by all parties. Even when your party wasn't government, you were still elected as the Speaker. You've had the opportunity to see things from a broad view. The dealings you talked about with the Board of Internal Economy would be totally different in this scenario, and yet it might have been a conflict situation or been detrimental to the code of conduct. But it's not in this: it's in dealing with the Board of Internal Economy.

After all that time you sat there, and having had four years away from it to ponder it—I'm sure you spend every day thinking about it—

11:50 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

—would you have suggestions that we might look at, or would you suggest that maybe leaving well enough alone is the answer?

11:50 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I'd certainly say that leaving well enough alone is the answer. I thought the system worked fairly well. There were almost no complaints or big issues that I recall when this was brought in and went into operation in the House. I thought the reporting system seemed to work quite well. Of course, I have no knowledge of the details of it, but to me it was fair and equitable. I presume that if a member didn't report something that they should have, they would hear about it, and it then got reported.

I think the system works quite well. I think the public frankly doesn't need all this information, because for the receptions that members are invited to, and the big meals and dinners that there's a big crowd at, there are more than just MPs there. There are usually some media people, so they can be aware of who has attended. If they wanted to make a list, they could do it.

I don't think the organizers of the event are worried about keeping secret the list of those who attended. That's certainly my impression. It's a fairly public thing. You're given a name tag. The name tags are all sitting there at the beginning of the event. If somebody is really determined to find out who went, they can go and look and at least find the list of people who accepted an invitation, because their names are on the tags. As to whether or not they show up, who knows?

But it's not a secret sort of networking thing. It's quite public, in my experience. When I'd go to an event, I'd normally run into colleagues from other parties at it. You could have a chat and mix and mingle. Sometimes you didn't even speak to one of the lobby people, if you can call them “lobby people”, the people who were the hosts organizing the event and trying to get members onside for something, if that was the purpose of it. You shook their hand at the door, and then you were just talking with other MPs for most of the evening. You might hear a speech, but that's it.

I just don't think it's something the public should be worried about. Yes, people like to lobby members, but members of the public can come and have an appointment in your office and meet with you and tell you what they think about something. Do we say that's bad? No. It happens in constituency offices all the time. Members of the public get upset about some issue and they come to see their MP and talk about it, or they talk to the staff. It may or may not have any impact on what you do in terms of your voting on the bill in question or pushing the matter with the minister or whatever, but they get their point across. It makes their day. If they leave a package of something for you, such as a book to read on the subject, is that a gift that you then have to declare because they want you to read this book?

As I say, I think having the stuff.... We give things away too when they're there: papers, Hansards, and all kinds of stuff that we give out. Does that count as a gift? Is that something we should be putting in as an expense? I don't think so.

We're in a public relations work environment, where you have to deal with people with differing views. You're going to meet them in different places and different circumstances. Some of these will be absolutely free of cost because they'll be in your office—aside from the rent, and you're not worried about that expense—and at other times it'll be at a reception or a bar where somebody's going to pick up a meal, or a lunch, or a beer or whatever. I don't think that's something we need to worry about reporting to the public, to be honest, because other people in other jobs are doing exactly the same thing, and they're not making those reports.

I think as members of Parliament we give away a lot of information in terms of our personal financial situation, and of course all the expenses of the office are monitored by the board, and our salary is public. I feel that the House does a very good job of putting out what's necessary for the public on these matters.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Richards.

May 5th, 2015 / 11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

I have a couple of quick questions, mostly to just follow up on some of the stuff you've already had a chance to address. I think you've made fairly clear your position on the idea of gifts and reporting and some of these receptions and things like that.

I want to get a sense, because, obviously, in your role as Speaker, in some of the delegations you've been part of and things like that, you may have received more gifts than a typical member of Parliament might. Obviously, there has been some discussion about the appropriate reporting level for those gifts. Currently, as you know, it is $500 and there's been some discussion about lowering that. You've cautioned against making that too low, simply because of the administrative burden doing that would likely put on both members and the administration.

I'm trying to get a sense, and I know it wasn't something that you had to think about often. You mentioned the one instance in which you didn't see something, and you were surprised that it was over that amount. What would you say would be the average value of a gift you might have received in that regard? Do you think that lowering the level to $200 or $250 would then create a higher burden?

Right now with the level at $500, as you say, it probably would be something that you wouldn't have to give as much thought to, because not a lot of gifts you would receive would be of that value. But if it were at $200, all of a sudden the administrative burden would change in terms of trying to determine the value of a gift, because many dinners can have a ticket price of that value, or if you're talking about a bottle of wine or a book or a painting, that dollar figure could be a little closer to what might be typical.

I'm trying to get a sense of the typical value of something you might have received and whether you think having the value at $200 rather than $500 would create a far bigger administrative burden or not make a lot of difference.

11:55 a.m.

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I'm sorry, I just don't know, because I never had appraisals done on these things. As I said, for this bottle of wine, I saw the price in the duty-free store and it was $497 in the local dollars, so I figured it had to be worth more than $500 in Canada if you had to pay that much to get it from there to Canada along with the markups we put on these things and taxes, so I had the bottle of wine declared.

I had no idea that the wine would be worth that much. I've received other bottles of liquor, lots of them, and I assume they weren't worth more than $500, because I've not heard of scotches selling for more than $500, at least not a few years ago. I know the prices have gone up for some or for vodka—

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

I'm sorry to interrupt. Obviously, you indicated that you didn't often feel the need to check whether something had a value over the $500 barrier. Would you more often have felt the need to check whether some of the gifts you received had a value of more than $200 or $250?

Noon

Former Speaker of the House of Commons, As an Individual

Peter Milliken

I probably would. I don't know what liquor prices are like. I don't go in and buy all that much hard liquor, so I'm not familiar with the prices.

But I'm sure the prices of some of these scotches now, from what I've been reading in the catalogues, are very significant. A lot of the gifts were that, but then there were other things you received like a little sculpture or a silver bowl or a clay thing. How much do those cost? I haven't the faintest idea and you'd have to go to the country where the thing was given to you to get the cost, really, because if you were bringing it home you would declare it at the value of the purchase price in that country.

When I was Speaker, I don't think I had to declare official gifts at the border. The staff had some way of saying these were official gifts, and that was that. We didn't know what the value was and we never had to find that out. How would you say to the donor, “How much does this cost? I have to tell somebody”? It's a real issue. So I'm not sure what the values were for a lot of these things. Just looking at them, I'm assuming they weren't more than $500. My staff may have done some investigating on their own while we were there, just to make sure, but I'm not totally aware of that, and I just don't remember if we had other declarations.

I'm sorry, I'm not in a good position to help you with it, but, certainly, in my view, if the figure were lower, you'd have to do a lot more appraisals. You don't expect people to be giving you gifts that are worth that much either. I was shocked that this bottle of wine was that expensive.

Noon

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Christopherson, maybe you can finish this off.