Evidence of meeting #113 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Leslie Seidle  Research Director, Institute for Research on Public Policy, As an Individual
Nicolas Lavallée  Strategic Advisor, Citoyenneté jeunesse
Michael Morden  Research Director, Samara Centre for Democracy
Elizabeth Dubois  Assistant Professor, Department of Communication, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Cara Zwibel  Director, Fundamental Freedoms Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Chris Roberts  National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Paul Thomas  Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Glenn Cheriton  President, Commoners' Publishing
Jean-Luc Cooke  Member of Council, National Office, Green Party of Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Lauzon

June 7th, 2018 / 11:20 a.m.

Chris Roberts National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Mr. Chair and committee members, good morning and thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

I am here on behalf of the Canadian Labour Congress, Canada's largest labour central. The CLC is the voice on national and international issues for three million working people in Canada. It brings together 55 national and international unions, 12 provincial and territorial federations of labour, and over 100 local labour councils.

The Canadian Labour Congress broadly supports Bill C-76. In particular, the CLC is supportive of the measures in the bill to ensure a fair, accessible, and inclusive voting process. We strongly support the bill's measures to improve access for voters with physical disabilities and to include child care and expenses related to a disability in a candidate's expenses.

Bill C-76 restores the ability of the Chief Electoral Officer to authorize the notice of confirmation of registration, the voter information card, as identification. This is a welcome step in our view. We also support the restoration of the ability of the Chief Electoral Officer to undertake public education and information programs to promote awareness of the electoral process among the voting public, especially groups facing barriers to access.

Bill C-76 reintroduces the option of vouching for the identity and residence of an elector, a step that we support. We agree, however, with Monsieur Mayrand that the option of vouching should be extended to staff in long-term care facilities and nursing homes, even when the staff person is not an elector in the same polling division.

I want to turn now to the bill's ramifications for third parties, such as unions and labour organizations.

Bill C-76 introduces significant additional requirements for third parties participating in elections. Under the bill, reporting requirements on third parties will become more extensive than for other participants in the electoral process.

During and between elections, unions and labour centrals engage with their members and with Canadians about issues that are important to working people. This education and engagement is vital to the informed and effective participation of working people in civic life and democratic debate.

We appreciate the fact that subclause 222(3) of Bill C-76 excludes from the definition of “partisan activity” the act of taking a position on issues that parties and candidates may be associated with. This is in the pre-writ period. Nevertheless, we urge the committee to carefully evaluate the additional restrictions and reporting requirements in Bill C-76 to ensure that the ability of labour organizations to engage with members and the public on workers' issues is not impeded.

A leading concern of the CLC is that if and when Bill C-76 is enacted, Elections Canada will issue an updated handbook for third parties that establishes the identical interpretative guidance for pre-writ partisan activity and partisan advertising over the Internet, as Elections Canada established for Internet election advertising during the writ period.

This established that Internet-based messaging during the writ period is only election advertising if there is a placement cost, that is, the cost of purchasing the advertising space. If there is no placement cost, then social media, email, and own-website messaging do not fall within the definition of election advertising. We hope and expect that Elections Canada will apply the same definition to pre-writ messaging. This is especially important now that, effectively, the period between elections—from polling day of the previous general election all the way up to the current pre-writ period—will be subject to regulation and reporting requirements.

With that, honourable members, I'll conclude my remarks.

Thank you very much for your attention.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you all very much.

Now we'll do some rounds of questioning, starting with Ms. Sahota.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first set of questions goes to Professor Dubois.

I'm fascinated by your presentation. I think it's something we're all thinking a lot about, with the recent elections that have occurred around the world.

I'm interested in the computational approaches that you talked about. How much do you think those approaches are currently being used in provincial elections or federal elections that we've had in North America?

11:25 a.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Communication, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Elizabeth Dubois

When we're talking about computational approaches, I'm going to be specific and talk about political bots for the moment. Political bots are automated social media accounts. They're also automated accounts that could exist on instant messaging apps or through other communication technologies.

Right now we know there was substantial use of those bots in the U.S. election. A report written by Sam Woolley, who is based at the University of Oxford, showed some concrete evidence. In the report that Fenwick McKelvey and I wrote about the state of bots in Canada, we also saw examples of political bots during the 2015 federal election. We've started doing some initial work during the election that's happening in Ontario today. Those results are not confirmed yet, and we still have some more analysis to do, but there definitely are examples of automation being used. Not all of that automation is necessarily for voter suppression tactics or for things that we necessarily would be uncomfortable with in the election.

An example is most media companies use automated approaches to send out tweets and Instagram posts and Facebook messages all at the same time rather than one individual typing on each of these different platforms. That's the form of computational political messaging that we're pretty okay with. It is very difficult to say exactly how much to measure in a quantitative way. Voter suppression exists because it is very hidden and hard to trace so I can't give you specific numbers.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Targeted messaging, for instance, stuff we're more familiar with at least at the political level as representatives, when you're putting out posts and messaging you can target it to certain populations, but you can also prohibit certain populations, demographics, from seeing it. What are your thoughts on that? Is that a form of voter suppression?

11:30 a.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Communication, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Elizabeth Dubois

This depends on our understanding of voter suppression. I'm not a lawyer so I can't talk specifically to what should or shouldn't count in one jurisdiction or another. What constitutes voter suppression in different countries or even provinces can vary. Certainly in the U.S. there have been examples of choosing not to show housing advertisements to specific cultural populations, which was deemed to be illegal in the U.S. housing context, because it was thought of as racially discriminatory. We see examples where that targeting and choice not to target specific individuals is legally not permissible. Then I think more broadly about the kind of voter engagement we want to have and the idea of citizens being equally able to participate in their electoral system if certain groups of people are systematically not being invited into the communication, not being given information by the candidates who are running in their area. That is potentially very problematic.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

This legislation does prohibit foreign spending in our elections and also any collusion between third parties here and foreign actors. Do you think that is a good step?

11:30 a.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Communication, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Elizabeth Dubois

I think it's a good step, but it's also important to recognize that it's very hard to trace, and without support and collaboration with the platform companies that are often used as the distribution mechanism here it's very difficult to ensure that those steps are going to be sufficient.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

We have some of those platforms coming before us later on this evening. What kinds of supports and co-operation would you like to see with those companies going forward?

11:30 a.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Communication, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Elizabeth Dubois

Some things are already under way with those companies, for example, creating new advertising transparency tools, which is really wonderful. These companies often make themselves available to Elections Canada, to candidates if they encounter some sort of problem during an election campaign. The problem is these are voluntary at the moment, and without a requirement that they continue to do things that serve the Canadian public and Canadian democracy, they could change their mind, and we would be stuck with whatever changes make sense for their international business needs.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

How do you think we can better prohibit the distribution of fake news? This legislation does take a look at that a little bit, and it also makes sure that people are not misleading the public through any type of a source. Do you think that's a good step forward?

11:30 a.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Communication, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Elizabeth Dubois

The idea of dealing with disinformation—I'm going to use that word because I think the term “fake news” has become politicized in a way that is no longer useful in terms of the evidence that I can actually speak to from an academic perspective—is, I think, a lot broader than the election context specifically, which is largely why I've just spoken specifically about voter suppression tactics and the role that disinformation can play there.

The ideas put forward in the bill about not being able to mislead seem, from my understanding, to be specifically about your not being able to pretend to be a candidate. You can't act as though you are speaking for a party when you're not. That's not the same as the larger voter suppression issue.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Now we'll go to Mr. Richards.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate you all being here.

I'll start with you, Mr. Roberts. You're here on behalf of the Canadian Labour Congress. It seems as though your group has been pretty involved in elections and in the lead-up to elections, in the last election in particular, I think. How much did your organization spend on election-related advertising in the lead-up to the 2015 election, in the pre-writ period?

11:35 a.m.

National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Chris Roberts

In the pre-writ period, which didn't exist in 20...?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Well, there was no legislative pre-writ period, but, of course, prior to that, we all referred to the period before the election as the pre-writ period, so, let's say, in the last six months before the election.

11:35 a.m.

National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Chris Roberts

As I tried to convey, the CLC drastically underspends legislated limits for the election period typically. We're engaged in issue-based discussion and conversation with members and with Canadians. I will just tell you that we didn't come close to the number.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Sure, but can you give us a ballpark figure of how much you would have spent on advertising in the pre-writ period?

11:35 a.m.

National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Chris Roberts

I can't, but I can provide it to the committee.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Can you provide that, yes?

11:35 a.m.

National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I know you have a number of affiliate organizations. I would assume that there are some—well, I wouldn't even assume. Certainly some of your affiliate organizations have said outright that there was some coordination of messaging and working together on certain campaigns around the election advertising. So if you take into account the spending of some of your affiliate organizations, is that something you could make available to us as well, how much organizations like the Ontario Federation of Labour and others spent?

11:35 a.m.

National Director, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Chris Roberts

Certainly the provincial and territorial federations of labour, which are part of the CLC, would fall under the single umbrella of the CLC, so that would be included in any umbrella number.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Okay, so you would have that.