You've been there, Mr. Simms.
Representatives of the government, or those who are spokespersons for the government, don't need additional time at committee. They have all the time in the world outside of the committee to meet with witnesses. The only reason to include that in this discussion document is to somehow be able to set the record straight, to change the line of questioning, to make a point at the expense of the other members here. I trust the government caucus members can make all of those same points, and the parliamentary secretary doesn't need to do that.
Whatever points a parliamentary secretary can make at committee can be equally made by a minister coming before the committee and stating their views. They could be made by a minister who sits through an entire debate on the subject matter affecting their ministry, which I have seen certain ministers do, and I feel it shows a profound respect for Parliament when they choose to sit through an opposition day on the subject of their ministry. I think it does, and I also think that, vice versa, it's profoundly disrespectful for a minister to choose not to sit through a debate day on a particular bill that affects their ministry.
A parliamentary secretary may stay behind. I know I've seen Mr. Lamoureux pinch-hit and be the standing voice of the government many times, and he serves that purpose well. He speaks on behalf of the government caucus very well, and he defends its position.
It says here, “Members are able to sow dysfunction in committees by filibustering proceedings either by refusing to yield the floor or by moving dilatory motions.”
It's not done on a regular basis. I cannot remember in this Parliament someone else having done so. The opposition is responsible. We would use this only in the most egregious of circumstances, like now. But by no means do I want to be here in two months still debating this. I don't want to do this at every single committee I go to, first, because I'd probably lose my voice, and second, because Mr. Genuis would probably lose his voice as well, because we would tag team until we got the job done.
We do not abuse that privilege we have. We do not abuse the Standing Orders that we have right now. We are worried that without unanimous agreement to proceed on this study, there could be a situation in which, at the end of this, the recommendation will be to take away all of those rights. The Standing Orders that enable the privileges and rights for us as members to be heard would be taken away. We on this side are truly concerned about that.
Being a good opposition member and being a reasonable opposition member are all about balance. We could obstruct the government at every step of the way, but we choose not to. We've done it now only because we're trying to make the point that we feel you are trying to do another motion number six. I don't want to overuse it as a euphemism in any way. I just want to reference it.
The last thing this document says is that, “The principle of deliberations in the House and in committees should be to engage in substantive debate on the merit of an issue, not to engage in tactics which seek only to undermine and devalue the important work of Parliament.” I agree. That portion of this statement I can agree with. If it's an important work of Parliament, then why are you trying to take away our ability to do important work in Parliament?
We can disagree. Mr. Simms and, I'm sure, others will say, “No, we're not trying to do that. You should trust us. We should proceed with the study as per the original motion.” Now, we could potentially proceed in the future without unanimous agreement, but that is cold comfort for opposition members who have no tools beyond this, because the other place we will then try to filibuster will be in the House, and the rules are already changed there so we will not be able to do it as efficiently as we might want to. We will not accept to have the rules changed on us so that we can't do anything and we would just become an audience. You've heard me mention that a few times. I don't want to become an audience member in a theatre. Parliament is not theatre. We are not passive participants in the proceedings of the House. We want to be active participants in the proceedings of the House and we will be. We will participate.
You've heard Mr. Christopherson speak with much passion about his mandate from his caucus. I believe that we on this side have a mandate from our caucus to represent our constituents, our caucus members, our supporters, and the people who believe Parliament is supreme, that we debate here as parliamentarians, that we respect each other, and that the standing rules exist in order to enable our privileges and our rights. We will not give those away. I refuse to give those away.
I simply don't know where the government intends to go. I don't know where the government caucus intends to go. This amendment to the motion would give me a lot of comfort in terms of knowing that if it were passed, we would be protected. There are tweaks to do. Multiple members have mentioned possible changes. Members who participated in the debate of October 6 mentioned possible changes to the Standing Orders. Those weren't rehearsed. Those weren't talking points. They were truthful and from-the-heart suggestions by individual members for our consideration.
Equally, for mine, I did not vet my suggestions through my whip's office or my House leader. This has been a freewheeling debate, an offer of my ideas. Consider them or not. If you so choose to, I hope you will give them more a substantive hearing, with debate and consideration, because I think they deserve it. I think they actually require it. I personally believe that the length for the study that the motion has right now—June 2, 2017—is too short, unless you're trying to do a historical echo back to what happened in the Ontario legislature. Then maybe there is some reason for that. I don't think that's a good enough reason to do so.
I want to reference The Canadian Regime: An Introduction to Parliamentary Government in Canada, third edition, by Patrick Malcolmson and Richard Myers. I can't even tell in what year this was done, but on pages 130 and 131, there is a section on House of Commons reform. Every single time there's a mention about the “possibility” of reform in the House of Commons, it says—this is a direct quotation—that it would be “to increase the power and independence of legislative committees and thus increase the power of the backbenchers who make up those committees”.
There is no mention of government efficiency and passing legislation more quickly through committees. There is none of that. There is no mention of programming, of telling us how much we may or may not debate. There is talk about making us more independent and making the committees more independent, but I don't see that in the very broad language used in the government's proposal. What I do see there is the great potential for the opposite.
We've already seen the government's attempts at using time allocation sometimes, which they admonished us for during the last election, and we on this side will continue to admonish the government to live up to the high-minded principles on which they ran. As I tell many members on the Liberal side, “You are well on your way to using it 100 times, so what comes around goes around.” You will wind up using it that often unless you introduce programming, and then you won't have to, because everything will be automatically time allocated. You'll have specific times: 15 days for this bill, or 15 days for that bill at such a stage. This won't exist anymore, and I don't think that's the right solution.
Also, I don't think you are giving yourselves enough time to consider the profound changes that will happen to the work you do. I also don't think you're giving yourselves the mandate within the committee if you don't approve this amendment to your motion, Mr. Simms.
The authors also say just a bit later about Paul Martin, the former prime minister:
A large part of what he meant by “democratic deficit” was the perceived lack of influence of backbench [members of Parliament].
It just so happens that a great many opposition members are backbenchers, and we have what we perceive to be very little influence, so why would you take away what little influence we have to move motions, for instance, or to debate a committee report by a committee that we don't usually participate in? Sometimes we're trying to just make a point. We have an idea, we want to raise a point, and we want to hear from others what they think as well. Some will consider it delay, while others will consider it a reasoned moment of reflection. Again, there is nothing wrong with a bit of reflection. Some people of faith do it during prayer.
The authors continue:
At [Mr.] Martin's suggestion, then, the rules surrounding questions of confidence [have been] changed to provide government MPs with greater independence from the party leadership.
The authors go on to say that “House of Commons votes are now divided into three categories”: the three-line votes, the two-line whips, and that concept that we all have to vote together. I think that has been beneficial for Parliament. We are more able to vote our conscience, the way our constituents want, and to differ, to disagree agreeably.
It has been a good change, because it also helps along the notion that the votes we have are truly free. They're all free. I did mention the consequences from all of our votes. I'm willing to live with the consequences of all of my votes, whether that is failing at re-election, being admonished by my supporters, being admonished by caucus colleagues, being admonished by others, or being praised by others. I hope some people will praise me for certain votes I've taken.
I think the most dangerous thing you'll see, from episodes of Yes Minister, is when a minister is told, “That was courageous: that was a courageous policy initiative.” That's when everybody recoils. I feel the same way sometimes about some of the votes that members of Parliament are expected to take. A courageous vote will cost you votes or it will win you votes, but the worst thing that can happen is that you vote a certain way, and then someday, when you are older and you are no longer here, you come to regret the way you voted.
The best piece of advice I ever got, from a now former member of Parliament, was to never vote against your conscience. If you don't feel it's the right thing, don't vote that way, because then you can't look yourself in the mirror for years afterwards. You will regret it, and it will hang on you. It will be there on your soul, and it will be a regret that you will always have: “I could have voted differently. I should have voted my conscience. I should have voted the way my constituents wanted.”
Every single member of the government caucus here is free to vote whichever way they want. You don't have to listen to the voice in your ears or on your shoulder, or to the other members. You can represent Parliament. You can join us in these proceedings, and through this amendment we can find the rules that we can agree on. You can vote with us and experience the consequences of your vote, which I don't believe will be anywhere as severe as this being done poorly. The process might be set up poorly.
As parliamentarians, it's not just for you that you do it. It's for the generations to come, for the people who will have your seat after you. I know that for many of you that means not the person who may defeat you in 2019—the great hope of many parliamentarians is to be re-elected—but you should think about that next person who will hold your seat, whatever political affiliation they will have.
I don't want to use this book too much, but I thought it was worth reflecting upon, because this is sometimes used as a textbook for students of parliamentary democracy. It's called The Canadian Regime: An Introduction to Parliamentary Government in Canada. I think it bears a lot of relevance. It's germane to exactly what we're talking about here, which is our role and what we're supposed to be doing.
I want to talk to you just briefly now, as I'm concluding....
I think it's the fifth time I've said that I'm concluding.