Evidence of meeting #82 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was debate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer McGuire  General Manager and Editor in Chief, CBC News, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Michel Cormier  General Manager, News and Current Affairs, French Services, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
Troy Reeb  Senior Vice-President, News, Radio and Station Operations, Corus Entertainment Inc.
Wendy Freeman  President, CTV News, Bell Media Inc.
Stéphane Perrault  Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Michael Craig  Manager, English and Third-language Television, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Peter McCallum  General Counsel, Communications Law, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

12:05 p.m.

General Manager and Editor in Chief, CBC News, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Jennifer McGuire

The big digital social players were absolutely engaged and on board to participate in the consortium in the last round. I think, if the question whether the consortium can look different from these four people, absolutely it can and should. It should broaden, particularly if you're trying to reach millennial and younger audiences who will only consume their content via a digital channel.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you.

If it's okay with the committee, I would like to have one short question.

Do you feel, if there is an independent commission or commissioner, that the broadcasters—and it seemed so from your presentation—should have some input into the subjects and topics so that perhaps they are more sensational or they create more advertising, as opposed to an independent commissioner who would pick something that's more in the public interest?

12:05 p.m.

General Manager and Editor in Chief, CBC News, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

Jennifer McGuire

We see defining the topics or trying to speak for Canadians or advocate on behalf of Canadians as a journalistic exercise. What has been the preoccupation in any given campaign has shifted, so it is to try to keep that independent, however you frame this exercise.

12:05 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, News, Radio and Station Operations, Corus Entertainment Inc.

Troy Reeb

To be clear, Mr. Chair, the debates, as long as I've been involved with them, have always been run commercial free, so it's not like there's an advertising win there.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Great.

We really appreciate your being here. I know you're all very busy, and it's very helpful to be able to go right to the core of your interests. It will certainly help our deliberations.

We'll break for a couple of minutes while we change panels.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Good afternoon, and welcome back to the 82nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs as we continue our study on the creation of an independent commissioner responsible for leaders' debates.

We are happy to have the following witnesses. From Elections Canada, we have Stéphane Perrault, acting chief electoral officer; and Anne Lawson, general counsel and senior director, legal services. They are almost a part of this committee, they are here so often. It's great to have you back.

From the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, we have Michael Craig, manager, English and third-language television; and Peter McCallum, general counsel, communications law.

Perhaps we could have Elections Canada go first.

12:10 p.m.

Stéphane Perrault Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is my pleasure to assist the committee in its study of the creation of an independent commission responsible for leaders' debates.

I have been following the proceedings of the committee and am pleased to provide input from the perspective of Elections Canada. My remarks will briefly touch on the objectives that, in my view, should inform the creation of an independent commission, or commissioner, for regulating leaders' debates. I will also outline a number of considerations respecting how such an entity could be structured and function, should the committee choose to recommend one.

There are several models internationally for leaders' debates, including regulation through an independent public commission. But, before looking at a particular design, it is important, in my view, to look at the objectives that may lead this committee to recommend the creation of a commission and that, if it does, may determine the mandate and certain features of the commission's structure.

For my part, I would suggest the following three objectives that directly contribute to a fair and open electoral process. Clearly, these concerns are my own.

First, debates should be organized in a manner that is fair, non-partisan and transparent.

Second, debates should be broadly accessible to the public. For example, they should be presented in a format that is available to the largest possible audience, including persons with disabilities.

Third, debates should contribute to informing the electorate of the range of political options they have to choose from.

There are three considerations to be taken into account in establishing an independent commission, or a commissioner. First, there is the matter of the criteria for inclusion in the debates. You know that one of the most important and contentious issues with regard to leaders' debates is who is included. Everyone is aware that this question has given rise to significant controversy over the years. In my view, an independent commission should not be mired in controversies regarding inclusion, especially in the middle of an election campaign. For that reason, the criteria for inclusion in the debates must be clear, and should allow for no or very little residual discretion by the commission. The criteria may allow for a range of factors. I know that, last week, witnesses came before the committee to talk about a range of factors. I am specifically thinking about Mr. Fox, who talked about a basket of criteria. The criteria could allow for a good deal of flexibility, for example, to allow for the participation of emerging parties.

But the criteria should be such that their application by the commission should be straightforward, if not mechanical. It is important to keep in mind that, to date, challenges to leaders' debates under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms have failed on the basis that they were essentially private events not subject to charter scrutiny.

If a commission were created to regulate the debates. and more specifically participation in the debates, the commission would be subject to the Canadian charter without doubt.

I recognize that it is difficult to draw the line regarded regarding inclusion in leaders' debates. For this very reason, I feel that it is important for parliamentarians to establish the appropriate criteria rather than the commission. I feel that the commission must apply criteria that are flexible, but that provide no room for discretion.

The second point regards the format and content of debates. While I believe the criteria for inclusion should leave little to no discretion to a commission, I see no reason that it could not have broad latitude in shaping the format and editorial aspects of the debates, subject only to the overarching objectives that I highlighted at the beginning of my remarks.

In terms of the format, as we know, the media landscape is in constant evolution, in particular with respect to social media. The commission should have the latitude to adjust with the industry and to take advantage of the opportunities.

In deciding the format, however, the equality of French and English must be respected and promoted. The broadcasting of the debates should also ensure access for people with disabilities. This means providing closed-captioning, sign language, accessible web design, or other means of facilitating access for persons with specific disabilities.

In dealing with both the content and format of the debates, an independent commission or commissioner could be required to receive input from participants and other stakeholders. It could also, and I believe this is important, be required to report to Parliament after the election to ensure transparency in its decision-making.

The final consideration is the structure of an independent commission. Obviously, the committee will need to consider the leadership and membership of a commission. Certainly the chair and members of a commission, should there be additional members, need to have the knowledge and expertise to organize debates. They could include representatives of the traditional networks as well as representatives of new media, appointed through a formula that prevents partisanship. They could also include representatives of civil society groups. If the chosen model was that of a single commissioner, he or she could consult with civil society groups and other stakeholders or set up an advisory committee to assist him or her in making decisions.

Some have suggested that Elections Canada should have a role to play in this area. With due respect, I disagree. I strongly believe that Elections Canada must be insulated from any decision-making regarding the leaders' debates so as to remain above the fray.

Debates are an important element of the campaign and often contribute to defining the ballot box issues. This is what makes the debates exciting and important. The Chief Electoral Officer should not be involved in matters that could be perceived as having an influence on the orientation of the campaign or the results of the election.

That being said, you may wish to consider a broadcasting arbitrator in establishing a commissioner or an independent commission. As you know, the arbitrator is an independent office-holder under the Canada Elections Act. He is appointed by unanimous consent of the parties in the House of Commons, or if there is no consent, by the Chief Electoral Officer after consultation with the parties. For example, the broadcasting arbitrator could be appointed as the chair of the commission to play essentially a facilitating role in convening the commission and ensuring that it functions properly, or instead, the model of the arbitrator could be emulated in the establishment of either a new commission or commissioner.

Finally, the nature of the commission's mandate may not necessitate an ongoing entity. Its activities will likely be sporadic and its meetings ad hoc. For example, most of the editorial decisions may be made in the lead-up to or during the campaign.

Elections Canada could certainly provide administrative support for an independent commission, including the payment of the commission's expenses. This is the model that is currently followed for the broadcasting arbitrator. It is also the model followed for the electoral boundaries commissions, which work independently from Elections Canada. It's a flexible and effective model that allows the commission to function with some basic administrative support without implicating Elections Canada in the decisions themselves.

Mr. Chair, I've set out a number of considerations that I hope will be helpful to the committee. I would be happy to answer any questions that committee members may have.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you very much.

Now can we have the CRTC?

12:20 p.m.

Michael Craig Manager, English and Third-language Television, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for inviting us to appear before this committee as part of your study on a proposal to create an independent commission or commissioner to organize political party leaders' debates during future federal election campaigns.

My name is Michael Craig, and I am a manager in the television policy group at the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission or the CRTC. With me today is my colleague Peter McCallum, and he is our general counsel of communications law.

We are pleased to have this opportunity to explain the role played by the CRTC as it pertains to leaders' debates during federal elections.

The Broadcasting Act sets out, among other things, that the programming provided by the Canadian broadcasting system offer a balance of information and provide a reasonable opportunity for the public to be exposed to the expression of different views on matters of public concern.

As trustees of the public airwaves, radio and television broadcasters play a significant role in providing news and information to Canadians, particularly during elections. They have a duty to ensure that the public has sufficient knowledge of the issues surrounding an election, and the positions of political parties and candidates to the public at large. Such a role is vital to the functioning of the democracy we enjoy in this country.

Our role at the CRTC is to ensure that broadcasters serve the Canadian public during elections so that citizens may make informed decisions on election day. The CRTC, as a matter of principle, does not dictate the type of content that broadcasters must air, be it political coverage or otherwise. Those are editorial and business decisions best left to the broadcasters themselves.

The Broadcasting Act does give the CRTC the power to make regulations regarding the proportion of time that may be devoted to the broadcasting of programs, advertisements, or announcements of a partisan political character.

Accordingly, the commission has made regulations affecting most broadcasters if they choose to air programs of a political nature. Those that do are required to allocate time for the broadcast of programs, advertisements or announcements of a partisan political character on an equitable basis to all accredited political parties and rival candidates.

In addition, the Canada Elections Act requires that the CRTC publish a bulletin within four days of the writ being issued for a general election. The bulletin essentially reminds broadcasters of their obligations during the election period. What follows is set out in these bulletins.

12:25 p.m.

Peter McCallum General Counsel, Communications Law, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Let me explain how we fulfill our mandate. Broadcasters must offer equitable on-air time to all candidates, parties, and issues during the election, so if broadcasters offer time on air they must do so for all candidates and parties. This enables them to share their ideas and opinions on issues with the public. The decision to accept or reject that offer of time on air rests solely with the candidate or party.

I'll pause for just a moment to make an important clarification. “Equitable”, which is in our regulations, does not necessarily mean equal. Our role at the CRTC is not to ensure that every candidate or party receives the same time on air as any other.

Similarly, the CRTC has also identified four types of election coverage: first. campaign advertising time paid for by a party or candidate; second, free campaign advertising time for a party or candidate; third, campaign news coverage; and fourth, public affairs and prime-time advertising during federal elections.

In most of these types of coverage, offers that are extended to one party or candidate must also be extended to other candidates or parties. So if one party or candidate receives free time, rival parties and candidates must also be offered free time. And if a broadcaster sells paid advertising time to any party or candidate, it must also make advertising time available to rival parties and candidates.

As far as debates among political leaders during election times are concerned, the CRTC's current approach was put in place in 1995 following a decision of the Ontario Court of Appeal that held that debates were not of a partisan political character. As a result, debate programs do not need to feature all the rival parties or candidates in one or more programs. So long as the broadcaster takes steps to ensure that audiences are informed on the main issues, and the positions of the candidates and the parties are presented on their public affairs programming generally, the CRTC considers them to be in compliance with its regulation.

12:25 p.m.

Manager, English and Third-language Television, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Michael Craig

Mr. Chair, honourable members, your committee has asked the CRTC to comment on the question of how an independent commission or commissioner might organize political party leaders' debates during future federal election campaigns.

As an independent regulator, the CRTC does not have any views on this proposal. The role of the CRTC is to supervise and regulate the Canadian broadcasting system in a flexible way, and to be responsive to the legislative frameworks that Parliament adopts.

We would be pleased to answer your questions about our experience in administering our current regulations as they concern federal election campaigns. We trust this will assist the committee in its work on these important issues for our democracy.

Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you very much for being here.

We're all very busy, and we'll start the questions with Mr. Graham.

November 30th, 2017 / 12:25 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Perrault, Mr. Craig, Mr. McCallum and Ms. Lawson, thank you for being here.

Welcome back. It's nice to see you here.

Mr. Perrault, we see you a little less frequently than Ms. Lawson. We are pleased to welcome you.

You expressed some concerns about the Charter. You were saying that, if this became a public issue, rather than a private one, it could contravene the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Given that situation, what should the criteria be? How far can we go with the criteria?

12:25 p.m.

Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

As soon as participation is regulated, Charter arguments can arise, saying that the rules are inadequate, either in terms of having the right to vote and being eligible to vote, or in terms of freedom of expression, whatever. I believe that those discussions should be held outside the election campaign. In my opinion, priority number one is that the criteria should be written into the law. Any challenge would be about the law itself, not about the application of the law by a commission or a commissioner in the middle of an election campaign. That is the main thing.

As for the criteria that should be chosen, you have heard other witnesses propose various criteria. For me, it's a tricky question. I understand that we cannot have a leaders' debate with 22 leaders at the same time. On the other hand, it is not up to me to come up with rules that would exclude any of them. My role is to look after all political parties, not to propose a framework for which parties should take part in the debates.

You have heard various proposals from the witnesses. What emerges from the proposals is the possibility of creating a flexible system that is open to emerging parties, while recognizing the need for an informative debate to take place between a limited number of participants.

Clearly, there are other possibilities, like alternative debates and so on. Once again, it is not my role to propose a framework for participation.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

If the Chief Electoral Officer were responsible for managing the debate, would he be able to give the parties unequal amounts of time?

By virtue of his role, should the Chief Electoral Officer force the 15 or 22 leaders to show up, so that it is fair for everyone?

12:30 p.m.

Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

Should the Chief Electoral Officer have the power to force the leaders to show up?

That question has been raised several time, unless I have misunderstood you.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

No, my question is the opposite.

If you were responsible for managing the debate, would it be beyond your mandate to say that one party can appear but not another?

12:30 p.m.

Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

I think your question shows why that cannot be the role of the Chief Electoral Officer. It is not up to the Chief Electoral Officer to exclude participants from a debate in the middle of the election campaign.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

It would be bad for his overall mandate.

12:30 p.m.

Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

Absolutely.

That is something that my presentation today has to make very clear. It cannot be the responsibility of the Chief Electoral Officer.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I share your opinion; I just wanted it to be included in the transcript.

For the CRTC, you mentioned “equitable” versus “equal”. I wanted to dig a little more deeply into that. I'm not really fully clear, if you have a debate of candidates locally, for example, and you don't include all the candidates, how that is permissible. You explain that it is, but I don't really follow how that is.

12:30 p.m.

General Counsel, Communications Law, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Peter McCallum

First of all, the CRTC does not mandate debates. The CRTC says that the court decision of 1993 means that the debates themselves are not about partisan political character. The “equitable” and in fact the obligation of balance, which is also in the Broadcasting Act, apply throughout the broadcast period, the election period, which is a defined term and is defined by the issue of the writs.

It's measured by the CRTC in response to, for example, complaints, by looking at the overall conduct of the broadcasters during the entire election period as to what they have shown, what they have not shown, and what parties they have featured in the four types of coverage I mentioned.

“Equity” does not necessarily mean “equal”. It recognizes that broadcasters have the liberty of expression that's guaranteed in the charter and also mentioned in the Broadcasting Act to make that sort of editorial decision. It does not necessarily mean “equal”, but the “equity” of the choices are looked at globally over the period.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Okay.

A witness at a previous meeting suggested that the commission shouldn't necessarily be called the “Leaders Debate Commission” but just the “Debates Commission”. Do you think any such structure should have a role in local debates or just in national debates? Do you have any opinion on the matter?

12:30 p.m.

Acting Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

I would be inclined to suggest that the first order of business would be that if you're going to create a commission to start with the leaders' debate, it's quite a task to deal with the full magnitude of an all-candidates' debate in all 338 ridings.

That said, a commission could conceivably set out best practices and guidelines that could serve as a model code for people organizing debates. That's a different matter from having a commission involved in every debate in every riding in an election.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Are there any comments?