Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 23rd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, April 11, the committee is meeting to discuss parliamentary duties in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Before we start, I want to inform the members that pursuant to this order of reference, the committee is meeting for two reasons. It is beneficial to keep this in mind. I know we have new witnesses from time to time and different people who may be viewing this video footage, so I want to remind everyone of the two reasons we are meeting: one, for the purpose of undertaking a study and receiving evidence concerning matters related to the conduct of parliamentary duties in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic; and two, to prepare and present a report to the House of Commons by May 15 on the said study.

The order of reference also stipulates that only motions to determine witnesses and motions related to the adoption of the report are in order.

Today's meeting is taking place via video conference, and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and to ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation in this video conference will work very much like in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If you haven't selected a language, I recommend you do so right now.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can either click on the microphone icon to activate your mike or you can hold down the space bar while you are speaking. When you are done speaking, you can release the space bar, similar to a walkie-talkie. This is very beneficial for quick back-and-forth responses.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. Should members need to request the floor outside of their designated time for questions, they should activate their mike and state that they have a point of order.

If members wish to intervene on a point of order that has been raised by another member, they should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to the chair your interest to speak. In order to do so, you should click on “participants” at the bottom of your screen. A list will pop up on the side of your screen with your name, and the “raise hand” function should either be at the bottom of that list or at the side. You should be able to see if you've been able to click successfully.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should always be on mute. This is vitally important for these meetings, because any background sound can be very disruptive.

The use of headsets is also strongly encouraged. Of course, Mr. Brassard, it's okay; we can still hear you even if you don't have your headset here today. The sound is just a bit clearer and sharper if you do have one.

Should any technical challenges arise in relation to interpretation, for example, or if you are accidentally disconnected, please advise the chair immediately and the technical team will work to resolve them. Please note that we may need to suspend during these times, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Before we get started, could everyone click on their screen in the top right-hand corner and ensure they are on gallery view? This view should enable you to see all the participants in a grid view. It will ensure that all video participants can see one another. This is also the most realistic, or it mimics what we usually see in a committee meeting. It is the best we can do virtually.

Also, when you are stepping away or looking away for a moment, I do advise that you leave your screen on rather than shutting your video off so that we know you didn't have some kind of a technical problem and that you're still there, just as you would be in a committee room.

During this meeting we will follow the same rules that usually apply to opening statements and the questioning of witnesses during our regular meetings. Each witness will have 10 minutes for an opening statement, followed by the usual rounds of questions from members.

I'd just like to urge the witnesses that if they do have remarks of less than 10 minutes, that would be ideal. If you can shave off a minute or two that will be very helpful, and I'll definitely remind witnesses in the second round of this because there are many questions we want to get to.

Just as we usually would in a regular committee meeting, we'll suspend in between panels in order to allow for the first group of witnesses to depart and for the next panel to join. In today's meeting we may have about a five- to ten-minute suspension at that time so the technical team can get set up.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today.

We have Michel Patrice, deputy clerk, administration; Pierre Parent, chief human resources officer; and Mélanie Leclair, director of employee relations. We also have, from the Public Health Agency of Canada, Dr. Barbara Raymond, executive medical adviser, vice-president's office, infectious disease prevention and control branch.

I'd like to start with Michel Patrice.

Go ahead, please.

[Michel Patrice, Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am here today with Pierre Parent, our chief human resources officer, who is leading the House administration's crisis management team.

We have put in place a number of preventative measures to help ensure the health and safety of members, their staff, and administration employees throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.

Our actions are guided by information from public health officials at various levels, with whom our health and safety team is in regular communication. We are liaising closely on various matters with parliamentary partners, other legislatures and security partners in order to base our actions on relevant and up-to-date information.

For several weeks now, the administration's crisis management and incident management teams have been meeting regularly to assess the situation, discuss mitigation strategies, and determine how to best support members and ensure a safe and healthy workplace.

In direct support of members and their staff, we have established a medical advisory service for those experiencing health-related issues that may be linked to COVID-19. Available Monday to Friday, the service arranges medical callback support with an on-call physician. Our in-house occupational health nurses are tracking cases, following up and responding to any concerns. In addition, four virtual sessions were offered by our members’ HR services team to provide information to members relating to their role as employers. These complemented the information shared with members on Source.

Our employee and family assistance program continues to be available to members, their staff and administration employees for confidential support 24 hours a day. Mental health support is an ongoing priority. We want to ensure that everyone in the House of Commons community is aware of the resources that are available to them.

For House administration employees, I can assure you that only those whose physical presence is necessary to provide required services are reporting to work on site. All other employees are teleworking where possible. I am proud of and impressed by the ingenuity of employees who are finding solutions to continue to provide support and services while also, in many cases, caring for family members. Where employees are unable to work, we have introduced flexible leave options.

Several steps have also been taken to protect those who are on site. We have increased the cleaning of high-traffic areas to three times a day. This includes entrances, elevators and handrails. A special COVID-19 cleaning and disinfecting service has been implemented for suspected and confirmed cases. This is in keeping with a protocol that has been established based on advice from public health officials. Additional hand-sanitizing stations have been deployed. Sanitizing wipes have been made available to front-line personnel. Physical distancing measures and proper hand hygiene reminders have been communicated, and signage is displayed throughout the precinct. Plexiglass barriers have been installed in areas where physical distancing options are not always possible. Other simple but important measures have also been taken, such as the rearrangement of furniture in lunchrooms. Our health and safety team continues to monitor the situation on site to ensure that guidance is being respected and to answer employee questions.

Regular communication with staff continues to be a priority. We are making special efforts to stay in touch with those who do not have House of Commons mobile devices. As such, we are communicating by text message, email, desktop pop-up and by the public website, and keeping a dial-in information line up to date. We use our regular communications to provide updated information—for example, the ID guidelines for interprovincial travel and changes to the House sitting calendar—and also to remind all employees of public health recommendations. Our occupational health nurses are personally following up with employees who have shown symptoms, and are liaising with public health authorities.

Through consultations with public health officials, we have been informed that personal protective equipment is not required at this time for employees working on site. However, given recent indications of a possible change of view on the use of masks, this policy will be closely monitored and adjusted as necessary. We have procured masks and gloves, and are preparing fact sheets to accompany their distribution, if required.

We are confident that we are in a strong position to support the activities of the House of Commons at the lowest risk possible to everyone involved. We will continue to closely monitor the evolving situation and adjust our actions.

I can say without reservation that this commitment to ensure a safe workplace is shared by all in the parliamentary community. Members of my team and I have been in constant communication with all the whips' offices, and I am confident that everyone is contributing to the application and respect of the various measures put in place to protect us and mitigate potential risks.

It will be our pleasure to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Patrice, thank you for your statement. It's always a pleasure to have you, Mr. Parent and your team here at PROC. You've been here many times before. Thank you for attending.

Next up is a new witness, one we've never had at PROC before.

Dr. Raymond, could we have your opening statement, please?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond, Executive Medical Advisor, Vice-President’s Office, Infectious Disease Prevention and Control Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada]

Hello, Madam Chair and committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you this morning with respect to the public health issues associated with this particular study. I will start with a brief overview or update on COVID-19 in Canada.

As of today, we have more than 38,000 cases of COVID-19 in Canada and over 1,800 deaths reported. More than one third of these cases are of individuals over the age of 60. The virus has proven fatal in 4.5% of these cases. Over 600,000 people have been tested for COVID-19. Approximately 6.5% of those have tested positive for the virus.

It has now been just over 16 weeks since the first cluster of COVID-19 was identified in China. In Canada we identified our first case on January 15. We first began to see what we consider community-level transmission in mid-March, about March 15. In Canada at the federal, provincial and territorial levels, governments have taken extraordinary measures to respond to COVID-19.

Border measures are one example. Since February 3 the Public Health Agency of Canada has enacted a number of emergency orders under the Quarantine Act to minimize risk of exposure to COVID-19 in Canada, to reduce risks from other countries, to repatriate Canadians, and to strengthen measures at our borders to reduce the impact of COVID-19 in Canada. The result is that the ease of travel that so many of us have taken for granted has changed dramatically. Travel is now increasingly rare and is often associated with 14-day mandatory isolation or quarantine periods. This even includes some travel within Canada from province to province. This is a really extraordinary switch for us.

Physical distancing is one of the most important measures that have been put in place to control the spread of COVID-19. The need for physical distancing has changed the way we live and work and the way we interact with one another. Mass gatherings have now been prohibited. This has significantly changed the way we come together—in committee meetings, in how we celebrate and in how we mourn. The necessity to protect the more vulnerable members of our society has meant that we've not been able to see many of our family and friends for many weeks. That's a real challenge.

Schools have been closed. That impacts not only students but also parents and families. This has required and generated incredible creativity on the part of educators to support ongoing online learning.

In terms of our workforce, all but essential front-line workers have been instructed to stay home. Some non-essential workers are able to work from home, but many others aren't. This is having a very significant impact on individuals and families as well.

There are impacts on businesses. Many businesses have been closed or have had to significantly modify how they conduct their business, which is having a very significant impact across the board.

It is hard to conceive of all the ways our lives have changed, in such fundamental ways, over such a short period. All Canadians have taken extraordinary steps and made extraordinary sacrifices to bring us to the point where we feel we are seeing some signs that the outbreak may be slowing, at least in some parts of the country. Although the data reported in the coming days and weeks will continue to be critical in determining our trajectory, the rate of doubling of reported cases in Canada has slowed from doubling every three to four days, in the period of March 12 to 28, to doubling approximately every five to eight days, in the period of March 29 to April 10.

We are all anxious for life to return to normal. It is natural that any signs of the outbreak ebbing will give us hope for that return to normal. Unfortunately, we are still in a pandemic situation and we must remain vigilant. How we move forward will be critical. In the same manner that we increased our public health interventions over time, we will have to ease those interventions very carefully over time in a phased approach if we want to avoid a rebound effect of this outbreak.

The Public Health Agency of Canada is working with provincial and territorial governments to determine the safest way to resume many of our previously routine activities. In the meantime, we must stay the course.

At this point in time, the best advice of the Public Health Agency to Canadians remains to stay at home as much as possible. Most importantly, if you feel ill, practise physical distancing, practise good hand hygiene and practise good respiratory etiquette such as covering your mouth or nose with your arm or sleeve when coughing or sneezing and disposing of used kleenex as soon possible. Do all you can to protect others, particularly the most vulnerable in our society, from infection.

Thank you. I am happy to hear your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Dr. Raymond.

Thank you to all of our witnesses.

We know that this is a very busy time for you, and I definitely acknowledge the sentiment that grieving is very difficult at this time. Our hearts go out to all those who have lost loved ones in the Nova Scotia mass shooting. It is a very tragic incident, and I know that Canadians are all grieving now in their own ways for those who have lost loved ones.

Now we will start with the first round of questioning, which is for six minutes.

Mr. Brassard, please.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to get right into it because time is short and I do have a lot of questions.

I'll start with Dr. Raymond.

Dr. Raymond, three sessions of Parliament have been held so far. The Prime Minister holds daily briefings, followed by daily briefings in the West Block by ministers and some deputies. In fact, the chief medical officer of health is involved in those, and we appreciate the fact that Canadians are getting those daily briefings.

Are they in full compliance with public health guidelines as they relate to physical distancing and other measures?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

To the best of my understanding, yes, they are. It is certainly what is the intent, so every effort has been made to ensure that those briefings are aligned with our best advice.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Okay, just to confirm, they are aligned with the best advice. That's great.

Are these also, Dr. Raymond, by and large the same safeguards that are observed in essential businesses that are open across the country?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

The same advice is provided. The same advice applies across the board for all Canadians in all settings, more or less. However, how it is implemented in different settings may vary somewhat. What may be achievable in one setting may not be achievable in another, so there may be alternative measures that we enforce or compensate for when something can't be done. For example, in a work setting where you cannot reliably and consistently maintain a two-metre distance and it is an essential workplace, there may be a requirement for personal protective equipment in those circumstances, but it really is a case-by-case analysis for each workplace, its peculiarities and its ability to implement the public health measures.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Raymond.

I want to move now to you, Mr. Patrice, particularly as it relates to West Block. How many staff on a daily basis are required for these daily briefings by the ministers?

[Michel Patrice]

I will have to get back to you with the specific information on those daily briefings, but I understand that the support for those daily briefings would be minimal. I'll get back to the committee with the exact numbers.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I also understand, Mr. Patrice, that anybody entering West Block has to sign in, whether it's for these briefings or any other business at West Block. Do we know specifically how many people are signing into West Block on a daily basis?

[Michel Patrice]

We have that information, and we'll be happy to provide the committee such information.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you.

This would be for both of you, Mr. Patrice and Dr. Raymond.

The committee is charged with looking at non-virtual alternatives. The other day we had Mr. Dufresne come in to testify on the legal and constitutional aspects of a virtual parliament. He referred specifically to section 16 of the Constitution and said that Ottawa is the seat of government and there's no legal impediment to holding meetings outside of Parliament—for example, there was the 1916 fire.

There are other venues within Ottawa. For example, the Canadian Tire Centre has 17,373 seats. The Shaw Centre is 365,000 square feet. TD Place, just down the road from Parliament Hill, has 10,575 seats.

As an alternative, if and when we do return to some sense of normalcy and there is still a requirement for physical distancing—and again, nobody's talking about 338 members coming back to Parliament—would or could those venues be alternatives that we can look at? For example, at the Shaw Centre, the diameter apart from each member of Parliament, assuming 338 members, would be 2,164 feet. The same would apply in the Canadian Tire Centre, with 80 sections of seats. Could those venues be used as an alternative to sitting in the actual chamber?

Mr. Patrice first, please.

[Michel Patrice]

I must admit that it's quite interesting, and if it's the will of the House, we definitely would look at making that possible.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Dr. Raymond, would those scenarios meet the physical distancing requirement? Other than holding a virtual Parliament, where an in-presence Parliament would be required, would those types of venues, given the fact they also have audiovisual equipment and screens, etc., accommodate some of the physical distancing guidelines that Health Canada would call for?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

Yes, it certainly sounds as though you would definitely be able to meet and surpass your physical distancing requirements.

However, I would caution that in changing your venue you have to take a more holistic approach to it. It's not just a matter of spacing everybody out. You're asking people to work in an unfamiliar environment. What will it take to sustain that environment in terms of cleaning, disinfection, control of who's coming and going, materials at hand, introducing the capacity for handwashing and all of those different things? It's—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

If those measures could be met—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Dr. Raymond.

We'll continue now with Dr. Duncan, please.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

Good morning, dear colleagues, and thank you to all our witnesses.

Dr. Raymond, my questions will be for you.

Thank you for everything you're doing to protect that health and safety of Canadians. I have many questions, so I'm looking for short answers, most often just a yes or no.

First of all, do we see a complete picture of the number of cases, or is there a one- to two-week delay between when people get sick and their information is reported to the Public Health Agency of Canada? Yes or no, is there a delay?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

There is always an intrinsic delay from the time—

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

So that's a yes. Thank you.

Has the goal of the last many weeks been to flatten the curve and increase health care capacity, yes or no?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

Yes, you bet.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

The months spent under strong public health measures such as physical distancing have “prevented an explosive outbreak in Canada”. However, I believe that the chief public health officer has been clear that we are not yet out of the woods. Are we out of the woods yet, yes or no?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

We are not out of the woods.