Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 11th, 2020

[Michael Morden]

Thank you so much for the question. I think I share your concern, if I understand it, in that we see MPs as individuals and as unique representatives of their communities. We prefer a model like a virtual roll call, in which there is that moment of accountability when the members themselves visibly commit their vote.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you.

Finally, I think we have only one more witness. Is that right, Mr. Roberge?

[Pierre Roberge]

That's right. Yes.

From a technical point of view, I don't have a problem with it. I think it's more of a function problem, as the others have outlined.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

I wanted to turn to the issue of voting online. I assume that it would essentially have to be a roll call. We'd go through one at a time, essentially replicating what we do in the House of Commons. Would that be correct?

[Aleksander Essex]

Who's the question addressed to?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I'm not sure. It's for someone who has the right kind of expertise to determine from a technical point of view what is meant by online voting, as opposed to app-based voting.

[Aleksander Essex]

We're distinguishing between a vote that might be input via a web-based interface using a browser, in which you sign in on a laptop or a computer, versus an application that might be on a smartphone. The network connection and security and so forth are managed slightly differently—the credentials and all of that sort of stuff. There are subtle differences I could tell you all about if you're interested, but—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

No. We only have 30 seconds here.

I just want to ask this question. How do we deal with someone who is dropped during a vote? Is there some way of getting them back in the voting so they can express their preference? Is there some way of catching the fact that they were not trying to abstain but rather were lost partway through the vote?

You can see the technical issue I'm worried about. This can be relevant. There have been governments.... The fall of the government was once decided by one vote while I was an MP, so you want to get these things right.

[Aleksander Essex]

Yes, absolutely, and I certainly remember that time with those close votes.

The issue that you're raising about bandwidth and dropping is actually a bit of a concern, especially if there is a threat actor who has the capability of cause the member's vote to drop at a specific time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That's all the time we have. I was waiting for a good point to cut there.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you to the witness, and thank you too, Ms. Sahota.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll just start by saying that I'm extremely glad to see that some of the witnesses, if not all, have mentioned the fact that this committee has been approaching this as a temporary issue. I think it's safe to say that all members of this committee would rather be meeting in Ottawa and voting in Ottawa, but the reality of the situation is that we are in uncertain times that require us to look for alternatives. I am unaware of any member who would like to implement this stuff on a permanent basis.

Dr. Goodwin, or is it Ms. Goodwin?

[Nicole Goodman]

Just Goodman.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Goodman, but is it Dr. or Ms.?

[Nicole Goodman]

I have a Ph.D., but either is fine.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

No, I want to get that right.

Dr. Goodman, you seem to be reluctant to do anything that is web-based or application based. I really want to understand that a little bit better.

Mr. Essex talked about an example in Sarnia where there was an error with the difference between “agree” and “disagree”. That might work if you have a city council of 15 or 20 people, where you can catch that easily, but the reality of the situation is that....

You'd have to talk me through how you do a voice vote in a parliament of 338 people, which, in our traditional sense, works through the parties. If it's a government piece of legislation, all government members would vote. Then, in succession, any other parties' members would vote. How do you line that up in the Zoom system so that you have everybody in the line? How does that work when we have 17-20 pages of thumbnails of videos? Are they just literally jumping back and forth all over the place?

How do you implement that practically speaking?

[Nicole Goodman]

It's a great question. Thank you.

You could go by party. You could go alphabetically. You—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Right. I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're not going to be lined up on the screen like that, so that if we were to go alphabetically, then we'd be jumping back and forth on Zoom from screen to screen. The way Zoom works is that if you interrupt me right now and just say, “I agree,” the screen won't actually show you as the main image until you've been talking for a few minutes, so I think there are a lot of technical issues that need to be addressed within the Zoom platform to make a voice vote actually work. Would you agree at least that there are some challenges?

[Nicole Goodman]

Absolutely, I would agree that there are challenges. Just between the voice vote and the show of hands, I am more supportive of the show of hands, but I'd just like to make a quick point on the web and application-based voting.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay. I'll let you get to that because I want to ask you a question about it.

Dr. Essex referred to “deepfakes notwithstanding”. I think we need to talk about deepfakes. I don't think we can say “deepfakes notwithstanding” and put that off to the side because I think it is something that is a reality and that can become even more of a reality for someone to actually implement.

Here's my own personal opinion when we're talking about authentication. With this device, I go to Tim Hortons down the street. I tap the side, and my wallet opens. It won't let me tap the device to pay until it gets my retina and does a facial recognition of me. Would you not agree that the technology that's built into smartphones would be so much more secure in identifying somebody than using or relying on somebody to say, “I agree” or “I disagree”, or “yea” or “nay”?

Dr. Goodman or Dr. Essex.

[Nicole Goodman]

To comment very quickly on web- versus application-based voting, it's not that I'm opposed to those options. I recognize that for the U.K. House of Commons, they built this voting app software—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I just need to understand—I'm running out of time here—which one you think is more secure, which one has the ability to have more security. Is it the voice vote with the image, or is it the authentication software that's built into these devices?

[Nicole Goodman]

I can't give a blanket answer to that, because—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Roberge, do you have an answer for that, being the security expert?