Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay.

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Although I appreciate where this is going, I'm cautious about it because I don't know how long it will take. To Ms. Blaney's point about getting the vice-chairs in position so they can be receiving the information, as she described in the example she set out, this could just add a delay to it.

I would also say that there is lots of representation on BOIE. For example, the opposition whip and the opposition House leader both sit on BOIE. There is an opportunity. I believe they are meeting very soon, as we heard in the presentation. I think there is an opportunity to push this along, especially from the Conservative position that has really spearheaded this angle of it. My inclination would be to vote against the subamendment unless I hear great reason to do otherwise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Can I ask you a question, Mr. Gerretsen?

What would happen to the issue of the salaries in that interim period if it were to go into effect but BOIE hasn't made specific...?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I think that's a better question for you, Madam Chair.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Yes, it might be. It's not something that you have thought about?

Okay.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I don't know.

My interpretation of what Mr. Richards is trying to accomplish—and you can correct me if I'm wrong—is that the positions are not appointed until BOIE makes that decision and changes the rules with respect to the payment. I understand that BOIE works primarily by consensus. I would assume that the Conservatives who are on that board, the House leader and the whip, will bring this up right away at the first BOIE meeting to say that we need to take care of this because this matters to us. Let's do this right away, and rightfully so, because I think the issue should be addressed. All I was saying was that I think the vehicle is there to drive this faster if the House leader and the whip on the Conservative side choose to do so in their participation on BOIE.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

This is such a long process, and I really appreciate everybody's patience as we look at the framework as we're addressing this type of minority Parliament.

I have to say that for me this is timely. It's going to take time for this to go through the next step of coming to the House. I will be pushing, of course, everyone to address this. I do think we are already sending it to the Board of Internal Economy. I think they can fix this quickly. The real issue for many of my members is just being acknowledged. So I will not be supporting the subamendment. I will be pushing my House leader hard to make sure that this is addressed as quickly as possible through the appropriate channels.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Monsieur Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I abstained earlier because I was in a conflict of interest. I have already explained my situation to you. Now, I think I am no longer in a conflict of interest since I do not have two vice-chair positions. However, something concerns me. I am a new member of Parliament so I do not know how it used to be done, but with respect to the potential third vice-chair from the NDP and our second vice-chair, there were debates in some committees that made everyone uncomfortable. We thought there would be a third vice-chair eventually, but we're still waiting.

Personally, I find the situation of the Bloc québécois and, consequently, that of the NDP, to be less than ideal. I am obliged to speak with the various leaders to tell them that this should be done in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, but this puts us in somewhat unpleasant situations. When I see the timeline being stretched, I find that it creates discomfort among the people who have to sit on these committees. That is my opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Are there any other comments?

We will move to the vote on Mr. Richards' subamendment. Would you like a recorded vote for this one? Yes, I thought so, especially for this.

(Subamendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

Now we will move to the Liberal amendment. All in favour?

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

A recorded vote.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Is there any debate on the original motion as amended by the Liberal amendment?

Yes, Mr. Brassard.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I have a couple of quick points, Madam Chair.

We've been dealing with this now for the better part of a month—since this committee has been constituted—and I still have not been able to reconcile the fact that here we are, as members of Parliament, effectively voting ourselves an increase when that is not the normal practice.

There are many Canadians across this country who would love to be able to say to their employer, or to themselves as an employer, “I'm going to give myself a $6,200 or $6,300 raise.” As members of Parliament we take it externally. There have been several examples, and Mr. Duncan and Mr. Gerretsen spoke about this. Certainly, when I was on Barrie city council we never made the decision on what kind of increase we were going to have. We made the decision on whether we were going to get the increase as recommended by an external body of community-minded people who came together and made recommendations.

We're effectively changing the standing orders on the fly, which is against the normal course of action around this place. The constitution of this place has been such that there's been consensus. I fundamentally disagree with the fact that members of Parliament are giving themselves a raise. There is no need for a third vice-chair at these committees. That hasn't been the normal course of practice around here. Frankly, I'm embarrassed that we're doing this.

I think most Canadians would have trouble reconciling what's happening within this committee. Certainly, there are people all over this country who are finding it awfully difficult to make ends meet. We know the statistics; they've been repeated several times in terms of where Canadians are at on their monthly obligations, and their inability to afford that. They would love to give themselves a $6,200 or $6,300 raise, but they don't have that luxury. For members of Parliament to do that, quite frankly, embarrasses me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Very quickly, Madam Chair, I want to point out for the record that we're not in any way able to give ourselves a raise, as Mr. Brassard is suggesting. We could not unilaterally say we are going to give somebody a raise of x dollars. What we're doing is assigning another person a position, for the reason that was very well put out by Ms. Blaney a few minutes ago, which is that one party is not getting access to information as a result of not having a vice-chair position.

We've taken a further step beyond that, Madam Chair, to ask BOIE, which is responsible for establishing and setting those supplementary payments, to look at making sure that scenarios don't exist where people would be double dipping per se. I just thought it was important to put on the record that we do not have the ability to give ourselves a raise—or to give anybody a raise, for that matter. That's not what's happening here. We're assigning a position to individuals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay.

Is everyone prepared to vote on the motion as amended? We'll have a recorded vote.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I just want to take a quick moment of everyone's time to let you know that I will be putting a motion on notice. I'm going to read it into the record today. I'll preface it by saying that this conversation has been really insightful for me. Again, I will just say that for this Parliament, I think it's really important we have the vice-chairs in those roles. It lets people know who's representing the parties, and I believe that's important.

This is the motion:

That in relation to the proposed change to the Standing Orders to add an additional Vice-Chair for the remainder of the 43rd Parliament, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs undertake a study on the issue of additional allowances for all vice-chairs under the Parliament of Canada Act and that the Committee make recommendations and report its findings to the House.

I think it's important that PROC do its work on this issue. It's really important, and I want to thank all the members for this discussion. I will make sure to get this in to you as appropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you for the notice, Ms. Blaney.

I want to bring to your attention that the next meeting is Thursday. We're meeting with the minister from 12 to one. We did have committee business slotted in from 11 to 12. Is it the desire of the committee, perhaps, to have the steering committee meet at that time or to take committee business off the agenda since we don't have much going on in terms of that? We have the study.

Ms. Blaney, would you like to talk about the studies in the full committee or would you like the steering committee to take a look at those?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think that's at the will of the committee. Of course, I would be happy to come here in the whole committee or the subcommittee to discuss motions that we need to move forward.

I think it would be good for us to start planning the next steps for our committee, for sure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

This is just a reminder, now that we have passed and adopted this motion, that I will be reporting it to the House and BOIE will be doing its work.

As for my earlier question, do you want the first hour of the next meeting to be a steering committee meeting or a meeting of the whole committee with all of its members to discuss further studies and other business?

[A voice]

Do it in the steering committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That will be in the steering committee? Is that okay? All right, the steering committee will meet from 11 to 12 and we'll be with the minister from 12 to one.

Thank you so much. The meeting is adjourned.