Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

The committee is now in session.

Good morning, everyone.

As we've all been waiting for, today is the day we'll finally be able to ask follow-up questions following the presentation we received and the tour we took of Centre Block.

Before we begin with questions, I want to remind everyone that this committee is webcast, which is the default for all meetings unless a televised meeting is requested specifically. We have webcasting taking place, so it's no longer just the audio recording; the visuals are being recorded as well. I mention this just so that all members are aware of it.

We do have some committee business, so hopefully we can get through the questions, leaving us some time at the end of the meeting to resolve some of the issues that may be brought up. We'll see how it goes.

Let's start with Mr. Richards, who's first on the list for questions.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

We put you on the list.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Sure, I'll allow my colleague—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, Mr. Tochor.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

Thank you very much.

My questions are about the lack of costing for this plan. Seemingly the first decision that parliamentarians are being asked for input on is this visitor centre, which is a hole in the ground right now...and it's dug.

We haven't had any feedback on the costing of the three options. We would like even a rough estimate of the difference in cost between options 1, 2, and 3. What would they be?

[Rob Wright, Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

That is an important question that we will have to work through together. It would enable us, as we continue to develop the requirements for the visitor welcome centre, to come back with some high-level comparisons.

Of course, it is hard to give cost estimates before we have the definition of the requirements from Parliament. There are a number of material decisions that would have impact on the scope, cost and schedule.

I completely understand the question and your frustration. At the same time, it is very difficult to give costing without knowing whether or not there will be committee rooms going into the visitor welcome centre. There are questions of functionality as well as size, and they have a material impact on costs. So getting a little deeper into an understanding of what Parliament would like to see in the visitor welcome centre will be very helpful to us when we come back to give some comparisons on costs.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I find this kind of bizarre. It's similar to someone going through a house construction. You have a contractor who is going to redo your front entrance and give you three examples to choose from. Obviously, if money had no bearing on the decision, everyone would pick the grandest and biggest one.

How are we to actually make a determination on...? Seemingly, one of the first questions involved is concerning to say the least. When will this committee find out those numbers? I know you're saying that we have to tell you what we need in order for you to come back at us with costs. I understand we don't have the power to make a decision today, but if we wanted to find out an actual breakdown of the costs between the three, how long would it take you to provide it to us?

[Rob Wright]

One of the challenges we face with the Centre Block and the visitor welcome centre—which is a bit of a shift from, say, the West Block, which we did in collaboration for the House of Commons, or the former Government Conference Centre, now the Senate of Canada Building for the Senate of Canada—is that this facility requires input from all parts of Parliament. There are requirements from the House, the Senate, the Library of Parliament and the Parliamentary Protective Service.

We are working through that at the officials level, but until we get integrated feedback on those elements, it is very difficult to give costing. However, we are one hundred per cent committed to working through that process with you. As we get the feedback on what you would like to see in each of those options, we can then come back with cost comparisons.

It's a bit of an iterative process. It is difficult to give you anything that would be useful from a cost comparison point of view on, for example, whether there are Senate committee rooms in the visitor welcome centre or not, or how much of an interpretive program.... We are starting to get good ideas on that, but feedback from you on what you want to see would be very important for us to then to be able to come back with some cost comparisons to support the decision-making process.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

All right, we're not going to get any costs on the actual plan going forward. Can we look at past costs, so that this committee can have an understanding of projects of similar scale? What was the initial budget? What was the initial timeline? What did it end up at? A prime example is this building.

[Rob Wright]

Since the long-term vision and plan was recalibrated in 2006-07, there's been quite a strong track record of delivering projects on schedule and on budget. Consecutively, 24 major projects were delivered on time and on budget. I can walk through a couple of those, if that would be helpful.

Phase one of the visitor welcome centre, for example, was $129 million. That was a 5,000 square metre facility, which gives you some benchmarking for some cost comparisons. Approximately 5,000 square metres and $129 million were delivered on schedule in 2018. This building was delivered for $863 million on budget in 2018.

The Senate of Canada Building, which also included other space for senators, was delivered in 2018 for $269 million, again, on budget.

The Wellington Building was delivered in 2016, at a value of $425 million.

The old Bank of Montreal, now the Sir John A. Macdonald conference facility, was delivered in 2015 for a cost of $99.5 million, again, on budget and on schedule.

Those are some examples. We can go through some more, if you'd like.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

That's all the time you have, Mr. Tochor.

Mr. Gerretsen

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Just for the record, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

You have six minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

My questions are about the Senate committee that is providing input into the process. Who would be the best to answer those questions?

Great.

I have a number of questions. How many Senate members are on their committee?

[Rob Wright]

To my understanding, it's the committee on internal economy, budgets and administration. There is, traditionally, a subcommittee on the LTVP, or the long-term vision and plan, which is the work we're undertaking on the restoration and modernization of the precinct.

To my understanding, that committee is still being stood up. I think that is almost finalized, but I don't think the final membership has been determined.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay.

How many members were there? Do you know the composition?

[Rob Wright]

The numbers would be similar to this committee, not entirely—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Is there a method by which the composition is determined?

[Rob Wright]

I think that is potentially in a little bit of flux in the Senate.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

When was that committee formed?

[Rob Wright]

I've been here working on this for over 15 years, and it pre-existed.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay.

Do you know how often they meet to discuss Centre Block specifically?

[Rob Wright]

There has been fairly active engagement with the Senate on the ongoing work. The Senate has revitalized the parliamentary precinct over a number of years.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Do you know how often it meets? Does it meet meet weekly or monthly? Could you give me a rough idea?

[Rob Wright]

There is a bit of a combination between the Senate administration appearing without Public Services and Procurement Canada. We are called to some of those meetings. Over the past 10 years or so, I have attended probably in excess of 20 meetings of the Board of Internal Economy and the committee on internal economy, budgets and administration.