Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[Rob Wright]

Sure. I would say there are a couple of elements. I'll deal first with the visitor welcome centre and the excavation work. The approach we're taking with that is essentially what I would call a “no regrets” approach. We've tendered it in a way so that it is scalable. The goal over the next several months would be to be able to make those decisions to align with the excavation. The excavation will take a significant amount of time. We've tendered that in a way that it'll align as well as possible with decision-making and that there will be no delays.

Decision-making, obviously, is critical. Resilient decision-making is fundamental, as is the agility of the decision-making. This level of engagement should hopefully get us to a point where there are no later changes. We get resilient decisions and that is really critical to these types of projects. Changes are what have a significant impact. The work we've done on the assessment program for de-risking unknowns and working through this engagement to ensure there is consensus around where we're going is a solid approach to ensuring that we're able to move forward. Over the past decade plus, in partnership with parliamentary partners, we have integrated a host of lessons learned and developed capacity and competencies to be able to complete this work, and have demonstrated a track record of being able to deliver these projects on time and on budget. We have, from a management perspective of the project, a fairly well-oiled machine to be able to implement this. It's really going through this engagement process to get to decisions that Parliament will be comfortable with today, in 10 years and 100 years from now.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Perhaps I can build on the engagement aspect of that. Again, respectfully, I think right now we're almost consulting about the consultation process with members of Parliament, for example, and what the forum is for our having a say. I tease my colleagues, though I'm one of them now, that you can ask 338 members of Parliament their opinion or ideas and you're going to get 500. How do you narrow that down in the decision-making process amongst ourselves? Is it just our committee? Is it the minister who has the final say? Is it PROC? Is that decided yet?

My second question is about working backwards or the reversing time frames. The goal is—and I wish you well—to be back in Centre Block in 10 years time, or whatever that time frame may be. If we're working backwards, what are the deadlines that you need a final answer from us on, whatever that consensus may be? I worry, as we spend all this time consulting and taking months to decide that, all of a sudden, we're now at a point where the one-year and two-year costs will be different. Can you work backwards? If we're going to keep on the time frames that you have right now, do you need a final answer from members on all these items by x date?

[Michel Patrice]

To the first part of your question, the past decisions made on the House of Commons' requirements were made by the Board of Internal Economy. For example, you talked about the planned digging of the hole. That was decided back in June. The board decided, at that time, to go for the middle option with the visitor welcome centre, in the understanding that it could be scaled up or down.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

The three options.

[Michel Patrice]

Yes. That's the middle ground, with the understanding that, once requirements are defined, and so on.... Decision-making over the last few decades has been by the board, but, as I said before, sometimes not to the level of detail that I personally would feel satisfied with. But the board has been really engaged in the past. It's been over a year now that we've been in this building, but the board was really engaged in the transition, in the decision when to move from Centre Block to West Block, and also in the follow-up and all of the things that needed to be corrected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That's all the time we have, but I don't know if you really got to the question. Are there internal deadlines set for certain things?

[Michel Patrice]

Yes.

[Rob Wright]

The presentation we provided last week mapped out a number of key decision points—some larger, some smaller—and gave a notional timeline of when those decisions would support us in proceeding in a timely manner.

It is always a challenge with these projects. Projects don't always align with parliamentary cycles. We have to manage through that together. This project will see out several parliaments. There will be recesses throughout that we'll have to try our best to align with.

Certainly in the calendar that we mapped out in that presentation, we've had a number of decisions over the spring timeline that were kind of articulated from our perspective of aligning with and continuing with the project schedule.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay. Thank you. I think we've provided a lot of leeway.

Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

First of all, I just wanted to say that I was extremely impressed by the work done to date. I want to thank all of you for your work. Going on the tour was quite an eye-opener as to the sheer size and complexity of the project that is being undertaken. I want to commend you on all the attention to detail. I really appreciate it.

I have two areas that I want to ask about. One is cost control. There seems to be a lot of conversation about that. I also want to ask about process design.

I'll start with cost control. You've mentioned iterative design, and I think that on the tour you mentioned agile project management, which are two terms that I'm aware of and comfortable with. I'm not sure if everybody else is aware of those terms. Maybe you could describe how, from your experience, those are really effective methods for cost control.

[Rob Wright]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair. I'll give a high level on that and then pass it over to my colleague, Ms. Garrett, who is responsible for the Centre Block program.

As far as establishing the cost and schedule go, we have a quite mature system within the precinct. The designers, as well as the constructors, develop costs and schedules. We have our own in-house experts. Then we have independent risk, cost and schedule experts and what I like to call “triangulation”. When our internal expertise and what we have coming from the designers and constructors lines up with the independent expertise, we feel quite comfortable that we've brought that to ground. When one of those points is out of sync, we drive that to ground until we resolve it.

That has been a tried and true methodology that we've used in the past to be able to deliver these projects on schedule. I know that there are a number of detailed, very important strategies that are being employed in Centre Block program. I'll ask Ms. Garrett to add some detail.

[Jennifer Garrett, Director General, Centre Block Program, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Yes, of course.

Thank you for the question.

Before we launch into the more strategic aspects of what you might be referring to, rest assured that we have very strong controls in terms of contract management and financial management day to day in the project. We make sure that we're executing those contract activities, monitoring those costs and making sure that the work being delivered on site brings value for Canada.

I think where your question is really going is to the strategic aspect of cost. What I think is most interesting about the project is that, based on best practices in project management, we are executing what we call “integrated lean program delivery”.

Two key aspects of this that I think are worth highlighting for this conversation are the physical integration of key stakeholders: from the parliamentary administration to the independent cost support and to our constructor and designer in one physical location. Beyond that, we have further broken down the barriers regardless of who you work for. For example, in the assessment program we talked about here last week, you worked together and you were co-located. We're trying to further break down those barriers and to collaborate and exchange information.

As it pertains to agile design and cost control, one of the aspects as we get your feedback and we start to understand the functional program and we start to lay down what those broad options are and then make decisions is that we're then going to design the budget. We will use target value design. We already have an approach for how we're going to do that for key aspects of the design process. We will appropriate budgets that are associated with those key areas, ranging from heritage conservation to the chamber, as key examples.

We will work to make sure that we're aligning the design with those budget constraints and flagging when we feel that we are not achieving fundamental requirements that might affect our operations at the end of the day, or otherwise generating efficiencies out of those exercises and re-profiling them to other parts of the program where they might be more needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

You have 20 seconds.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Wow. I have one more question, then.

It sounds like to manage costs, one of the key things we need within that iterative process is input from MPs, as well as senators, of course. I'm just wondering what the process looks like for that consultation so far.

[Michel Patrice]

As I said, traditionally, the board has been making those decisions and holding those consultations. There's been broader consultation, as our team consulted previous PROC members individually for their input, but the appearance before this committee is also helpful for us. We're going to have a meeting at the board this Thursday, where we're going to discuss the going-forward governance decision-making.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Monsieur Therrien, you have 2.5 minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

That's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm happy to take those 2.5 minutes if you want to pass them on.

One of the questions I have, per Ms. Duncan's earlier comments, is about how historic a lot of the work is in that space. What I'm curious about is the skill set needed in some cases to duplicate that craft work. How are you going to manage this? I'm assuming that in the other buildings you had to deal with this too, but in the Centre Block it's going to be required even more, I guess. How do you manage budgets as you're looking at these particular detailed craft works that are needed?

[Rob Wright]

Madam Chair, it's a really important question. The capacity challenge is fundamental to the success of these projects. The work that we've undertaken over the past decade-plus has really reaped benefits for this program. When we were at the very early stages of the West Block, for example, there really wasn't much of a local masonry industry left, and that's been revitalized through these projects.

We've worked with a range of universities and colleges. We worked with Algonquin College to put in place apprenticeship programs. We had the largest apprenticeship program in stone masonry in North America, and 30% participation of female trades in that area, which is again the largest in North America. Two of the carvers who worked on the West Block won international gold and silver medals. There's been a revival of these really important trades—the copper roofing industry and so on.

At the same time, we continue to innovate. We've done a lot of work with Carleton University, for example, on digitizing the facilities, the Centre Block first and foremost. That is enabling us to do robotically assisted fabrication that is working hand in glove with the trades people and the expert crafts people working on these projects. Several of the elements throughout this building and the Senate of Canada building were hand crafted first. Then there is robotically assisted fabrication through 3D modelling when we repair a grotesque or a gargoyle. That can be developed into a 3D image; then we can work to fabricate that using robotics and then have the crafts people put the final touches on it.

We've made a lot of progress, I would say, over the past decade, both from the capacity of working with what can be an industry with some capacity challenges, as well as innovating defined solutions that will work to ensure that we're able to achieve all of the objectives of this most important project in Canada.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Another challenge that I know of with some of these older buildings is the issue of accessibility, not just for folks who are working and coming to visit here but also for the members. As you're looking at the House of Commons, I'm wondering what sort of work you are doing to make sure that there's more accessibility for members who may be elected.

[Rob Wright]

Absolutely, it's a critical question.

Centre Block has a lot of accessibility challenges. When you look around, the public gallery is a prime example, and there are lots of other areas.

We faced those same challenges in this building as well as the former Government Conference Centre, which is now the Senate of Canada building, and we've been able to achieve significant improvements, in many cases exceeding the building codes from an accessibility perspective. We're continuing to push forward on accessibility.

We are working through those challenges of how to find the balance between the preservation of the heritage and improving the accessibility. Sometimes that requires some remodelling of the space. Sometimes that involves putting elevators in different places so you can get to an accessible entry point.

The gallery in the chamber is a perfect example of feeding an elevator to a point where there's accessibility. It avoids the stairs that go down into the gallery, as one example. If we are to retain the House of Commons chamber, it will require some kind of remodelling of the gallery to make it fully accessible, but we are working through that and we have plans that enable the chamber to be fully accessible, the gallery to be accessible and all key areas of public interaction and that are core to parliamentary use.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

Since the committee is working so well together, I thought that rather than go back, since we've completed our formal rounds, that we have an informal round and people have been putting their names on the list. Each person would get five minutes to speak.

The list as we have it right now is Ms. Petitpas Taylor, Mr. Duncan, Mr. Brassard, then Mr. Gerretsen. If we have more time we will also take more—Mr. Turnbull.

Okay, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I also want to thank the committee members for hosting us last week at Centre Block. We often say a picture is worth a thousand words, and being on site really provided us with a great opportunity to see the extent of this huge project we are taking on.

You may have already answered this question, so please excuse me if I've missed it. We certainly recognized when we moved into West Block—the building is beautiful, but it perhaps isn't optimal to meet all our needs. I'm wondering what the consultation was like with members of Parliament when doing the work for West Block. Again, I recognize that the Senate is not here, so this is just with members of Parliament, but I'm wondering what type of work was undertaken with the members of Parliament concerning the consultation process. How long did it take?

[Michel Patrice]

As I said, I don't think the consultation with members was sufficient in designing the accommodation of the West Block. It's a project that spanned seven years.