Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks. I want to go back and follow up, because I felt that I got cut off last time. Thanks for giving me a bit more time.

It sounded as though there are crucial decisions with impacts upon costs, timelines, configurations, space allocation and project management, for sure. I think you mentioned those in your briefing. The visitor welcome centre, the chamber, the gallery, the lobbies all have key decisions needing to be made. They would have a pretty big impact on the overall parameters of this project.

Size and scope, I think, are going to shift dramatically, depending, as you said, upon whether there are structural changes—that the chamber needs to be expanded, or something. That's a big decision that is going to impact upon everything else.

I guess I'm going back to what methods of engagement should be used and included in a process such as this to help make some of the key decisions. They really are key, to speak to the point made by my colleague from the Conservative Party, who was concerned about costs and cost overruns. Ensuring that we have a good process for engaging MPs in helping to make some of those decisions is probably going to help manage costs and expectations.

My really clear question, after this long preamble, is: what are the methods of engagement that should be used, and how often should MPs be given input, in an ideal scenario?

[Michel Patrice]

It's a bit unknown at this stage, as I said, because the discussion will be pursued with the Board of Internal Economy this Thursday. Obviously, in making those decisions and, may I say, the authoritative process for making them among the various options, I'm going to say that it will require quite some involvement by members, whatever it is going to be...

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Should it be continuous? Should it be up front? Should it be at key pivotal moments throughout the process?

[Michel Patrice]

I think it will be a continuous engagement with those who are tasked with the responsibility of making those decisions.

For example, in the past parliament, for the visitor welcome centre there was a working group established by the Board of Internal Economy. Just on that question—it's a significant one—and the recommendation that came forth, the group met for over six hours in three different meetings on decorative questions and so on, and a briefing, and coming back with options, projected costs and things of that nature.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Did that working group work well to help make some of the decisions at the time?

[Michel Patrice]

From my point of view, it did work well, but that was in the past.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay.

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

You have two minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I'll ask another one of the questions I had; it goes back to energy efficiency.

I'm interested in hearing more about any innovations. Clearly this is a topic that we all believe in today. We're looking at energy efficiency in homes, at energy efficiencies anywhere we can achieve them, and looking at renewable energy and clean tech. I'm interested to know whether any of those new technologies or advancements or innovations are being incorporated into the design concept.

[Rob Wright]

Absolutely.

With all of the projects that we've completed, sustainability has been a critical objective. From the baseline of 2005, we've reduced GHG emissions by 56% to 2018. That's a little ahead of our target. I think the target for that timeline was 40% by a decade ahead of that target and further.

With each project we have implemented a number of initiatives from a sustainability perspective. Right now we're undergoing research with the NRC and Concordia University, specifically on the thermal performance of heritage buildings and how to improve their performance from an energy conservation perspective. Of course, with everything there will be water conservation. For the first time really, the Centre Block will be hooked up to modern heating and cooling, with modern facilities driving all of that, which will drive down the energy consumption significantly. There will be LED lighting, and on and on.

Within, for example, the Sir John A. Macdonald Building and the chamber here, we use the recycling of air. In the summer we're able to vent the hot air. In the winter we're able to recycle large volumes from the upper portions back down to ground level.

It is a priority, and I'll ask Ms. Garrett to give a couple of more details on the Centre Block in particular.

[Jennifer Garrett]

Certainly.

I think one of the context pieces for this actual particular rehabilitation program is that the courtyards that are contained in the Centre Block are really exterior walls, so for a building of its size, which is already very large, you have a significantly higher percentage of exterior exposure. Right now we are pursuing a design solution that will actually close those courtyards, effectively making those exterior walls into interior walls. This will bring us significant gains along the sustainability spectrum as well as provide optionality in terms physical use of the space. It's a win-win situation in terms of that.

We have baselined the building and we're working very hard to be a flagship for sustainability and understand where we can push the envelopes as the design progresses forward. We're not there yet in terms of understanding exactly what technology we're going to be putting into the building and how that will relate to the broader campus, which also has a sustainability objective.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Ms. Garrett.

Ms. Duncan.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Before I start, could I just thank our colleagues who have come here, the officials?

Would you like a minute to just go "sigh", because this is exhausting? Would you just like a minute to breathe?

[Michel Patrice]

We enjoy the discussion. We are learning a lot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

If I may say, this is the last member, so after five minutes of questioning, I think at that point we will be able to adjourn this part of the meeting.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm just going to come back to that 1996 study. I know you're going to table that with the committee. Without enlarging the chamber, how many seats did that 1996 committee study offer?

[Rob Wright]

I can't speak specifically to the 1996.... I don't have it with me. I can say that in the studies that we've been undertaking—which would have leveraged that, I'm quite sure—it still bumps around by a few, but 429 is the maximum that we've been able to fit into the space. It would be somewhere in the 420 zone that we would be able to fit, as for members in the chamber.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

I'm going to come back to you. I am very worried about the governance issues. I mentioned that there was a joint committee in 1916 to bring both the House and the chamber together to oversee the construction, and I think we need to do some work around that.

We've all asked questions about governance, but I think it's important to see what that governance structure is. I'm wondering if you could table with the committee a diagram to that effect, and also, perhaps, how the decisions are being prioritized and challenged to ensure the highest and best use.

I'm going to come back to the visitor centre. I think when you come to Parliament Hill, when you see that great expanse and you see that beautiful building, there's a sense of awe as you walk up to it. Then when you go in the entrance, it's the rotunda, and you look around the rotunda and it's the signs and symbols of Canada.

It reminds us parliamentarians where we come from, more importantly, who we serve. How do we ensure that the cultural heritage and the story of Canada are not lost?

[Rob Wright]

Thank you for that very important question. When it was built, the Centre Block, if you may know, was essentially very much a blank canvas, and the story of Canada has been filled in over the past century. There still are spaces for the story of Canada to continue being told in the Centre Block, and that will be a key component of the project. We'll be working with the House of Commons, the curator, the dominion sculptor and others to develop an appropriate strategy to ensure that it tells of both our past and where we're going as well.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

The last thing I'm going to come back to is that this is not just a building: It is the past of Canada; it is our future. When we think of what Mr. Pearson designed, we think of that wonderful chamber where we turn the pages to remember those who gave their life in the service of this country. The stonework there was brought from Europe. When that building was built, it was the only place that people could come to to honour the fallen. I want to know how we are going to protect that space.

[Susan Kulba]

We are very conscious of the heritage value of the Centre Block. It holds the highest designation. It's a classified heritage building. We work hand in hand with FHBRO, the federal heritage review board that advises us on how to treat the heritage elements in our classified buildings. We consult with them; we take advice from them. They're an advisory board. And we have experts, whether they be on our own staff, or the consultants that Public Works has engaged, who have spent their careers working on heritage facilities. We're very conscious of the heritage value. We understand the value that certainly is embodied in the design of the Centre Block. Our hope and aspiration is to preserve that and actually to add a new layer, with the visitor welcome centre, of current cultural heritage that will be as respected 100 years from now as the Centre Block is by us today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, I guess the rounds of questioning have come to an end.

I want to thank everyone from the House of Commons, from the Library of Parliament, from Public Works for being here today. All of you did your very best to answer our questions, and I know some of them were tough. Our wonderful clerk is also going to give you access to the blues and all of the information you might need to provide some of the requests that were asked for here today. Perhaps you might just have, even if they weren't formal requests, some more information to provide as a follow-up to some of the questions that we may not have gotten complete answers to today.

Other than that, I'd like to call this portion of the meeting to an end and suspend for about five minutes before we move into committee business. Is that okay with everyone?

[An hon. member]

That sounds good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay.

Thank you to the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I'm going to call this meeting back to order.

A couple of things have been brought to our notice.

The first is Mr. Richards's motion, and I believe Ms. Blaney may also want to talk about her motion, but we'll move on to your motion first, Mr. Richards.