Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Sutherland, we're out of time, but you can take 30 seconds, if you can, to answer that.

[Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Office of the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Governance), Privy Council Office]

Sure. I think the minister has it right. The one dollar is simply an accounting placeholder. It's fair to call it that. In the opening months of the fiscal year, the commission was not in place and was therefore not incurring any expenses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you so much.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, you have six minutes.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Minister LeBlanc for being here with us today, as well as Mr. Sutherland and Madame Paquet. You're very generous with your time, being with us for two hours, and we certainly appreciate the time you are giving us.

The focus of my questions is going to be the Leaders' Debates Commission.

Minister LeBlanc, I was extremely pleased when you announced this month that the Leaders' Debates Commission would remain in place for the next general election. I think we would all agree that Mr. Johnston is a stellar individual to lead this really important work.

I'm wondering if you would be able to elaborate on the intended goals of the debates commission and how you feel it contributes to our democracy.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I, too, share your view that Commissioner Johnston is exactly the appropriate person to lead this exercise. It won't surprise you or any colleagues, but I think he's probably the second-best governor general our country has had since Confederation—obviously, with my father ranking just slightly higher than him. He inspired Canadians in his work as governor general; he's an example of exactly the kind of worthy Canadian who can do a great service to Canada in that office. We see his continuing effort to voluntarily do this work. He's obviously doing this work in volunteering his time to lead this commission.

I think in previous general elections we recognized the inability that used to be referred to as a consortium debate, where different networks would get together and form a consortium, would have.... We can all remember some of the great moments: when Mr. Mulroney became prime minister, Pierre Trudeau's debates with Mr. Clark. I remember watching those as a kid. They were seminal moments in a general election campaign.

The media landscape has changed. The way Canadians consume news, the real risk of disinformation in an election context.... We thought that if we had a credible structure, like many other democracies have.... We saw in the United States that the presidential debates commission—in spite of the turbulence that that recent election saw—continued to function and to offer Americans debates with the two contenders to be president.

We think that having a structure that is independent and credible, that works obviously with party leaders—because they are the key participants in these exercises—and that can offer at least an English and French official language debate with access in a number of other languages simply helps to inform Canadians on the choices they have in a general election. It's something that Canadian voters can rely on to be fair and independent and, most importantly, accessible. If you were to do one on a specific television network that wasn't accessible in some parts of the country or in a language that wasn't accessible in other parts of the country, different private networks.... That was a challenge in previous elections. We think this is a good base to give everyone access to independent and well-structured debates.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

What do you see as the key areas that need to be improved before the next federal election?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you for the question because it tracks very much, we believe, the suggestions that Commissioner Johnston made in his report to Parliament, which, as you know, I tabled at the beginning of June. His lessons learned thought that there should be a greater role for the Leaders' Debates Commission in the production, in the format, of the debates. I think those of us who watched the 2019 debates.... There were some concerns around the format, particularly in the English debate. I think Commissioner Johnston in his report acknowledged that.

Giving the professionals at the Leaders' Debates Commission a greater say in the production issues of the debate I think may provide a higher level of rigour, obviously respecting journalistic independence. We're talking about the structure of those debates.

Another thing would be ensuring that they're available in as many languages as possible, including indigenous languages. I think there were 10 languages in the previous debates that were accessible. I think that's the number—Allen Sutherland could correct me if I'm wrong—but, again, we can do more. We can do more to ensure that indigenous or other communities in the country are able to benefit from those debates in a language that is accessible to them.

Those are just two practical things that we hope and believe the Leaders' Debates Commission will focus on for the next general election.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Being in a minority Parliament, do you see that we're going to have any additional challenges that the Leaders' Debates Commission is going to have to deal with?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

There are probably two areas off the top of my head.

Obviously, there is the timing. The commission was able to know that the last general election would be in October 2019. If we could get a quick consensus at the committee, perhaps, to have a report to Parliament saying that the next general election should be as planned in October 2023, that might be helpful for the commissioner's planning. In a minority Parliament, that's not a luxury that the commission will have. The timing of the election remains uncertain. I'm sure that the need to be prepared and to plan will be that much more important, as it is for Elections Canada generally.

The other unknown is what the context of the global coronavirus pandemic will be. We saw some of the discussions in the United States around having a debate where there would be plexiglass dividers between the podiums. They had two podiums in that debate. There will likely be more than two on the stage during our debates. Public health regulations and public health advice.... Assuming that election takes place where the context of COVID-19 is still a serious concern, it would behoove the commission to be very on top of public health advice to ensure that that can successfully be prosecuted as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

Monsieur Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Good morning, Mr. LeBlanc, Mr. Sutherland and Ms. Paquet. I'm very pleased to hear from you today.

I need some help in understanding what's going on with expenditures. Mr. LeBlanc, I'm confident you're here to help us.

In the last election, it cost $4.6 million to produce the leaders' debates.

Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Yes, Madam Chair. According to the figures I have, that's the amount the commission needed in 2019, and that's the same amount we're proposing now.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

You said that funds in the amount of $800,000 were not spent.

Is that right?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

As I understand it, the remaining $800,000 of the 2019 allocation has been transferred to this fiscal year for the commission's preparatory work. I want to give you specific answers, and Mr. Sutherland can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Right.

If I do a simple calculation, it cost $4.6 million, plus the $800,000 that wasn't spent, for a total of $5.4 million.

Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Yes, assuming that for the fiscal year of the next election, the commission will require $4.6 million. The full amount may not have been required, as almost $1 million remained.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay. If there was $800,000 left over, that means the costs were less than expected.

Now, you're budgeting $5.4 million to produce the leaders' debates. That's an increase in the cost of producing the debates. You're telling us that the $800,000 will be used to organize the next debates, among other things. That's what I've understood.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's it. As I said in response to a question from Ms. Petitpas, the context for the preparation of the debates will be a little different from the last time since the election date is unknown. I think that's a matter for Mr. Johnston.

Mr. Therrien, you probably know Michel Cormier, who was director general of the commission. He had a career as a journalist. He's an Acadian from New Brunswick, which warms my heart. He ended his journalism career as news director at Radio-Canada in Montreal. He worked with Commissioner Johnston, and I hope he will continue to help him in his work.

We will be able to provide you with very specific answers in writing, if that's better for you, and Mr. Sutherland will also be able to comment.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

All right. I'm having a hard time understanding what the $800,000 will be used for. If this amount has been carried forward, it means that the expenses were less than what was planned. Now you're presenting us with expenditures increased to $5.4 million instead of $4.6 million. I'm wondering what this money will be used for.

You said that there are costs associated with the fact that we would be in a pandemic situation if there was an election coming up. I have already thought that this would also increase costs. I can understand that installing Plexiglas and all the necessary equipment because of COVID may cost a few dollars more, but I don't think such a large cushion is necessary. I think the additional expense of holding debates in times of pandemic would be very small.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I fully agree with you about expenses directly related to the pandemic. I guess the amounts would be quite low.

I have never produced a national television event, and Mr. Cormier or the commissioner could provide a better explanation. Mr. Johnston's recommendation to give the commission a greater role in the production of the debates was accepted. In fact, it was recognized that the commission, which is independent, could play a greater role in the production of future debates. I guess part of the increase in costs is related to the greater role it will play in the production of the debates.

I received a lot of criticism about the production elements, especially for the English debate. I think it would be a way to promote consistency, like in the French debate, which I assessed as an observer. This reflects Mr. Johnston's desire in this regard.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay. I'd like more information about the $800,000. I trust you, and I know you'll give it to me.

There is an amount of $1.8 million for professional and special services. Is this a competitive bidding process? Can we find out who won the contracts? I've heard about the WE case, and I'm a little scared. It's normal, I have a strange reflex. Can we find out who got the contracts? Were they tendered? Can we have all those details?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Therrien, I'd be pleased to provide you with all these details in writing. Perhaps Mr. Sutherland can provide specifics. I've seen these details, but I don't have them in front of me.

Mr. Sutherland, can you help Mr. Therrien to understand this element?

[Allen Sutherland]

On the specific point about professional services, at least some of the money went towards legal services in response to the legal case against the debates commission.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You'll recall, Mr. Therrien, that a lawsuit has been filed against the commission. This resulted in legal costs, as Mr. Sutherland said. I'm committed to providing you with an explanation.

I would be pleased to send you and all members of the committee, through the chair, details of these expenses.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

You're very kind. I appreciate it very much.

Thank you.