Evidence of meeting #10 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sutherland.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Allen Sutherland  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Office of the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Governance), Privy Council Office

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Good morning, everyone. We're going to get started very soon.

I think we have everyone present, so there's no time like right now. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Today is November 17. I'd like to start the meeting by providing some information following the motion that was adopted in the House on Wednesday, September 23, 2020.

The committee is now sitting in hybrid format, meaning that members can participate either in person or by video conference.

Most of this information is now for the benefit of our witnesses. Witnesses must appear, as they know, by video conference, as they're appearing today.

All members, regardless of the method of participation, will be counted for the purposes of quorum. The committee's power to sit is, however, limited by priority use of the House resources, which is determined by the whips. All questions must be decided by recorded vote unless the committee disposes of them with unanimous consent or on division. Finally, the committee may deliberate in camera provided that it takes into account the potential risks to confidentiality inherent in such deliberations with remote participants.

Today's proceedings, just like usual, are going to be made available via the website of the House of Commons. They're being webcast. The entirety of the committee will not be shown—only the member speaking. If you need to take a drink of water or have a little snack, it's okay.

For those participating virtually, you know the rules by now. Raise a point of order if you want to speak outside of your regular speaking time. You can do that by unmuting your mike and stating that you have a point of order. If somebody wants to speak to that point of order, please use the “raise hand” function in the toolbar.

If you're participating in person, the clerk will help us maintain a speaking list. We're talking to each other on the side so that we know what's happening in the room and with those participating virtually at the same time.

November 17th, 2020 / 11 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Madam Chair, I'm here to keep an eye on Mr. Doherty in person, so don't worry. I have him in my scope.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

All right. Mr. Doherty is becoming a good friend of mine, though, and I do trust him completely, but thank you.

It's good to know who is in the room, because it is a little difficult for me at times to get a good idea of that, but our clerk, Justin, does let me know.

Just as a reminder, if anything happens technically, please let the clerk or me know immediately so that if we have to suspend, we can suspend, so that everyone can participate fully.

That is about it. I do want to say off the top that at the last meeting Ms. Vecchio asked about the planning meeting for the prorogation study that we're going to do after this study. I have asked the clerk to try to fit in a subcommittee meeting on the 19th—that's this week—because that's the only meeting we have coming forward. That's a two-hour meeting. What we're trying to do is get another hour tacked on to that. I don't know if it will take an hour, but at least we'll have the resources for an hour. We're just finding out whether we can get that. Then we could tack it on to Thursday's meeting, and all the planning for that study could happen within that subcommittee.

The meeting on the 24th is already for two and a half hours, and then the meeting on the 26th is already a three-hour meeting. It has become very difficult to get slots outside of our regular meeting times, so that's the issue we're having right now, with a lot of the other committees also going two days a week. House resources are limited.

That's the update on that.

That being said, let's welcome our witnesses who are before us today.

We have with us Minister LeBlanc, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

With him, he has Mr. Allen Sutherland, assistant secretary to the cabinet, office of the deputy secretary to cabinet, and Madam Manon Paquet.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Madam Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt. We're getting a message that the audio online portion is not coming through. The dial-in portion is not coming through. It's very faint.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Okay. We will have the tech team look into that. Thank you for raising that, Mr. Doherty. Hopefully we can resolve that because we do want our staff to be able to hear us and participate.

As I was saying, we also have the director of special projects for the democratic institutions secretariat with us here today. We are meeting on the supplementary and the main estimates today, on the Leaders' Debates Commission. I thank our minister for sending remarks in advance. I think all of you should have received those written remarks as well. They will help you follow along and formulate your questions.

Welcome, Minister LeBlanc. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Beauséjour New Brunswick

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc LiberalPresident of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs

I've actually prepared 55 minutes of opening remarks, so I know colleagues will be quite excited to hear those, particularly my friend Todd Doherty I see there with Tom Lukiwski in the room.

Gentlemen, you have missed me so much that you're looking forward to this hour-long presentation, because I know you really want an hour-long discussion on the financial details of the Leaders' Debates Commission. I can't imagine why you would have invited me here to discuss anything else.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Minister, don't make me bring up clam scam.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Todd, I was hoping you'd bring that up, or maybe Irving airplane transports to medical appointments would be another one we could talk about.

Colleagues and Madam Chair, I am very happy to be here. All joking aside. I am happy to see my colleagues. I've had a chance to see a number of you in Ottawa when I've been in and out over the last number of weeks, but it is a privilege to appear before your committee, PROC, Madam Chair.

I used to be a member of PROC in past Parliaments. I understand the important role of the PROC committee and the work you do, particularly around the Elections Act and democratic institutions, which are a core responsibility of your committee. It's in that context that I am obviously happy to be here today, and in particular to talk about, as I said, the financial estimates for the Leaders' Debates Commission.

As you noted, Madam Chair, I am joined by colleagues from the Privy Council Office, the assistant secretary, Allen Sutherland; and Madame Manon Paquet, who is a director in the democratic institutions group at Privy Council.

Colleagues, we have many reasons, as Canadians, to be proud of our democracy, but I think we don't need to look very far around the world to know that democracy is, in many contexts, very fragile. Protecting our values, institutions and practices is a challenge faced by all democracies and it requires constant vigilance. That's why I thank you, Madam Chair, and your colleagues on the committee for the ongoing work you do in this regard.

The Leaders' Debates Commission, and leaders' debates themselves, play an essential role in federal elections and are a cornerstone, in our view, of a healthy, vibrant and diverse democracy. Since its creation in 2018 the independent Leaders' Debates Commission has engaged Canadians in our federal elections and provided a platform for citizens to compare and learn more about prospective prime ministers and their ideas for our country.

While the commission receives administrative support from the Privy Council Office, it conducts its mandate with complete independence from government and does so, obviously, in the public interest. That's why, on November 6 of this year, I announced that the Leaders' Debates Commission, originally established to organize debates for the 2019 general election, would remain in place for the next general election as well.

I also announced the reappointment of the Right Honourable David Johnston to the position of commissioner of the Leaders' Debates Commission. I obviously thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for agreeing to continue this important work.

As you know, colleagues, the commission was established in 2018 with a mandate to organize political debates for, as I said, the 2019 general election. The commission delivered two leaders' debates, one in each official language, during that election, but also made available the debates in a number of additional languages, including indigenous languages. But we believe, and the commissioner believes, that we can continue to do more work in that regard as well.

In the following months the commission conducted a lessons learned exercise based on its initial experience with the 2019 election. This resulted in a recommendation report, which I tabled as you know in the House of Commons on June 1, 2020. This report included 10 precise recommendations that seek to inform future debates in Canada, but I think this was another example of the outstanding work that the Right Honourable David Johnston did for Canadians.

As President of the Privy Council I have been mandated by the Prime Minister to consider the report of Canada's leaders' debates commissioner on how to further improve leaders' debates and ensure they continue to be a central part of federal general elections.

The renewal of the commission's mandate will ensure that there will be debates for the next general election, regardless obviously of the timing, which is clearly more uncertain in a minority Parliament.

The supplementary estimates (B) include an amount of $4.6 million for the commission, which reflects the amount allocated in the 2018 federal budget. These funds are set into a frozen allotment and will only be available to the commission once the 44th general election is called.

The supplementary estimates (B) also include an amount of $800,000, which seeks to ensure that the commission can lead the necessary preparatory work ahead of the next general election.

This amount represents funds that were not spent by the commission during its initial mandate and have been moved, therefore, into the current fiscal year.

Madam Chair, before concluding, I would like to thank this committee for its ongoing study regarding the conduct of a federal election during a pandemic.

As the Chief Electoral Officer notes in his special report to Parliament, it is paramount that we protect the health and safety of electors, election workers, candidates and other persons involved in the conduct of an election while continuing to maintain the integrity of the electoral process.

I look forward to reviewing the upcoming committee report. I look forward to seeing your findings and recommendations, and learning how we in government can work with your committee to determine next steps. We understand the urgency of being ready, as requested by the Chief Electoral Officer. That's why the work your committee is doing right now is so important.

In conclusion, thank you members of the committee for the opportunity to appear today. I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you for being here today.

Thank you to your team, Madame Paquet and Mr. Sutherland.

We had the Chief Electoral Officer in here already on that study, and we are seeing him again on Thursday this week on the estimates. We're looking forward to getting that study completed so you know what this committee is thinking when it comes to an election and how we can be ready.

We'll start the first six-minute round of questions with Mr. Doherty.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the minister.

It's good to see you here, Minister. It's always good to see you in the House, and in good health as well.

Minister, why is the government spending money on preparing for election debates in the middle of a pandemic?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Madam Chair, through you, we obviously believe that it's important for the Leaders' Debates Commission to be prepared. We know that a general election in a minority Parliament can happen at any time. We think it behooves our democracy to have that structure in place to be prepared to organize independent debates when the next general election is ultimately called.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Minister, in the last session, the Liberals pushed through the elections regulations without debate in the House of Commons. The Liberals hired a Liberal-connected polling firm to determine who participates in the debates and appointed Craig Kielburger of the WE organization as an adviser.

Since then, we've come to understand the connection of the Kielburgers to the Prime Minister and his family. Would it be safe to say that the complete independence you spoke of in your opening remarks is now in question?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Madam Chair, it probably won't surprise you that I don't agree with that assertion.

I think the Right Honourable David Johnston is an example of an outstanding Canadian whose integrity and independence should be well known—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Minister, could you then tell us what role Mr. Kielburger played in organizing last year's debates?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I wasn't a member of the debates commission, Madam Chair, so I wasn't at those meetings. The commission didn't report to me on the nature of those discussions they had as a debates commission. So no, obviously I'm not able to provide answers.

What I was going to say, Madam Chair, is that it is important to have a commission in place, led by somebody as credible as the Right Honourable David Johnston, with an advisory panel that obviously will be reconstituted now that the commission is going to be in place for the next general election. We will happily work with all parties in making suggestions for an advisory group.

Ultimately, Mr. Johnston is the appropriate person to decide who should be on this advisory group, and we trust his judgment.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Great. Those are great comments, Minister.

Now that you've said that, in keeping in line with complete independence, will you commit to appointing a panel that includes representation from each party in the House of Commons to provide input to the elections debates commission in order to prevent a debate plan that favours one party over the other?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I hadn't thought about that, but again, Madam Chair, if the commission is to do its work independently, I'd want to reflect on the appropriateness of having active partisan persons involved, in an advisory capacity, with Commissioner Johnston. We could certainly raise this with Commissioner Johnston.

In the end, he benefits from a broad range of advice from non-partisan people. There is a process, for example, where political parties interact with Elections Canada in a well-established committee or structure that Elections Canada has for hearing from representatives of political parties.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Minister, I'll ask you to—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I'm not sure that it behooves us to have political parties directly involved in the debates commission. I trust David Johnston. I think Canadians would as well.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Minister, can you prepare an oral accounting of the amount that was spent last year? We're now eight months since the end of the fiscal year. Can you table that with our committee?

When your government tabled the main estimates in February, it sought a dollar for the debates commission. In June, in the supplementary estimates, nothing more was sought. Then in September you asked for $5.4 million for the debates commission.

There has been a minority government throughout this time, so what has changed?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

If I can, I'll go back to the beginning of your question, Todd. You said to table an oral update? What does that mean?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Can you provide an oral accounting of where the money budgeted has been spent?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

I'm sorry, but I think I'm a little confused. An oral accounting...?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Can he provide us with a detailed analysis of how that money has been spent to date?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Sure, I can take a crack at that.

Todd, I will ask the assistant secretary to the cabinet, Allen Sutherland, about this. He probably has some of the detailed information you're looking for now. Obviously, if it's not adequate, we'd be happy to ensure that we provide to the committee, in writing, detailed information around that spending. Obviously we can do that, but Mr. Sutherland, I think, can offer some precision.

Mr. Sutherland will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason there was a placeholder of one dollar was simply that cabinet had not, by order in council, reconstituted the commission, as cabinet did some weeks ago. Therefore, the commission, now having been formally stood up again, is in a position to have a spending authority appropriate to what was done last time. But before the government had decided to recreate the commission.... I point out that the recreated commission would reflect the suggestions Commissioner Johnston made in his report of the 2019 election. We wanted to ensure that the recreated commission would track as much as possible the thoughtful suggestions that Commissioner Johnston had made to improve it.

Perhaps Assistant Secretary Sutherland can provide some of the detailed financial answers that Mr. Doherty is looking for.