Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Doherty, you have five minutes, please.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Michael, I have a bunch of your stuff done. I'm putting things—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mrs. Vecchio, you're not on mute.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Karen, do have any of my stuff done, too? You have some of Michael's stuff done. What about mine?

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Any time [Inaudible—Editor].

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Perfect. It's like Maryam Monsef with the hot mike yesterday.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Minister, on that point, you gave me a window.... Just exactly how much do you make?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You know what, it's a good question. I think it's higher than $250, but I know it's less than my wife.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

There you go.

Mr. Sutherland, would you be able to table with the committee all contracts let within the organization for the debates commission, please? That's a yes or no.

[Allen Sutherland]

I think I need to explain that. The debates commission is independent, so they would be the ones in position to answer that request.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

All right, thank you.

I want to comment on Mr. Gerretsen's response, as well as something that you mentioned earlier, Dominic, on the geopolitical challenges we have with potential foreign interference and foreign actors. We are in a pandemic. All countries can be seen at their weakest point in terms of safety and security.

The report that we're doing is about holding an election during a pandemic and ensuring Canadians that it's safe and secure and that our democratic institutions are intact. I think the comment you made is germane to that report. I don't think we've asked for any of our security experts to come before the committee. Perhaps that would be something that we would have to have off-line. Minister, I'd be very interested in that meeting.

It is so important, to Mr. Gerretsen's comment, that everything that we do—whether it's this committee or the work yourself as a minister or the cabinet—that we can provide assurances to Canadians that democratic institutions are intact and that there is complete independence. You may or may not want to comment publicly, but perhaps the appointment of Mr. Kielburger, in hindsight, may have added to some of the concerns that Canadians and others may have had with respect to the independence of the debates commission.

I'm also very happy to see you. I think I said that earlier. I'll chime in like everybody else. Whoever the gentleman was from Europe, he was obviously young and vibrant, because you've got his blood and you look very young and vibrant now. It looks good on you and it's great to see you.

I'm wondering if you can comment further about the safety and security of our democratic institutions, and perhaps on getting those security advisers to our committee to have that meeting. I would take you up on that offer.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I share very much your concern about protecting Canadian democracy from foreign interference.

As you know, before the 2019 election, Karina Gould put forward a plan. It was ambitious: almost $50 million over three years to ensure that not only was our security and intelligence community able to prepare citizens, sort of, as we talked about with Mr. Gerretsen and others, improving citizen awareness and resilience, but we also set up an organizational structure in the Government of Canada including access to the G7 rapid response mechanism. We set up a new security and intelligence threat to elections task force. We had a public protocol where, during a writ period, if there was determined to be a sufficient threat to a safe, fair and free election under way in Canada, the Clerk of the Privy Council, with other senior officials of the public service responsible for intelligence and security agencies, would have an obligation to publicly disclose that to Canadians in an electoral context. But we can always do more.

After the election, we asked Jim Judd, a former senior security and intelligence official of the Government of Canada, to review what was done in 2019 and make recommendations to strengthen that.

Madam Chair, with the only proviso.... I want to make sure that I'm offering up security and intelligence senior officials to the committee. I'm happy to do that, but I'll make sure that the Privy Council, Madam Chair, consults with your office on the proper way to do it. My instinct is it's probably an in camera meeting, obviously, if you want to have a more detailed discussion with these officials.

I think it would be interesting for members of the committee to have some of the briefings that I had after the last election in terms of their preparation for the next one, because Mr. Doherty properly raises an issue that all of us should be concerned about. We shouldn't be smug and think we're immune from this kind of potential interference. Canadians deserve to know that every step possible to safeguard our elections is in place. I personally think that's the case, but I would be happy to share, within the measure of what's possible, probably in an in-camera meeting with members of the committee and with officials briefing you directly.

Madam Chair, if it's the desire of the committee I'll ask the Privy Council to work with your office to figure out who the appropriate officials are and what the appropriate security context is to provide you that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Absolutely. I think that would be very interesting. I'm seeing some nodding and thumbs up. Have your office get in touch with my office, and we will arrange something in the near future.

Mr. Alghabra, you have five minutes.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. If you could just let me know when, I would like to leave some time at the end of my round to give Dr. Duncan an opportunity to ask a question.

Minister, I am not going to butter you up like the rest of my colleagues. I'm already your parliamentary secretary and I have to deal with you—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Omar, you shouldn't talk about buttering me up. You didn't see the greasy grilled cheese sandwich I stuffed into my face during some of the questions. Don't talk about buttering up.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

In all seriousness, I want to pick up on some lines of thinking or questions that were asked. Let me start by saying that a fundamental part of a democracy is an objective, fair and legitimate election.

How important is the debate to the electors? How important is the debate to the voters?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Omar, thank you for your help and your service as a parliamentarian as well.

I think it's fundamental. Again, I'm going by some research I read some years ago. It was an academic paper, I think, around the point in a general election when Canadians typically make up their minds. For the vast majority of people who don't know how they're going to vote when the election starts, or are less than very certain, and/or changed their minds during the course of an election—because that also happens, as we've seen in some previous elections—the widely accessible, appropriately formatted leaders' debates are absolutely critical to helping Canadian citizens make up their minds in terms of how they're voting.

Again going by memory, I saw some research that said it's typically in the 72 hours following the leaders' debates, which are typically in the last third of an election, that people who are undecided or perhaps are wavering actually come to a decision on how they're going to vote. It tends to lock in, in some cases, in those last seven to 10 days, but following a leaders' debate. As Al Sutherland pointed out, if we were able to double the accessibility to Canadians of that debate in 2019, as compared with 2015, let's aim to go even higher in the next general election.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Just because the private sector is able to do it, isn't there wisdom in making sure that we need an independent institution to ensure the protection of voters' right to access such debate?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's exactly the question. If you're with a particular TV network or social media platform, you may not have an interest, or it may not be accessible to a wide range of people who want to follow the debate. That's why having a signal produced by an independent commission with the highest standards of integrity, independence and journalistic ethics, but making that available free and very broadly, as Al Sutherland said, on social media platforms to television and radio networks, speaks to exactly that accessibility that I think Canadians expect to have during an election debate. That's why picking and choosing private networks or other venues doesn't necessarily suit that broad accessibility, which I think benefits every Canadian voter.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I'll ask Ms. Duncan to ask her question.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you so much to my dear colleague and friend.

Minister, I am going to come back to health and safety, if I may. I'm really concerned about our residents in long-term care. Remembrance Day has just passed, and many in long-term care are veterans and family members of veterans, and we owe them a debt of gratitude. We owe all of our seniors who have helped build this country safe and dignified care. The greatest tragedy of the pandemic is the lives lost in long-term care homes. Should an election be called, I want to ensure the health and safety of those in long-term care. When I looked at just Ontario alone yesterday, there were 100 long-term care homes in outbreak with over 700 resident cases and over 500 staff cases.

Through our work here, we've heard recommendations like no polling stations in long-term care, no election workers in long-term care, no taking residents out of the home to vote and use of mail-in ballots.

I'm just wondering if you would like to share with the committee any ideas you have about ensuring the health and safety of our long-term care residents while ensuring their right to vote.

Thank you, Minister.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I noted in the Chief Electoral Officer's report that considerable attention was paid to exactly that challenge. It would be unacceptable to disenfranchise the residents of these long-term care homes. My mother was in a long-term care home in Ottawa until January of this year, so I fully understand the importance of ensuring accessibility to these residents, to these people who deserve a right to vote, but they deserve a right to vote safely in a way that's based on the best advice from public health experts.

That's why I agree with one of the suggestions of Monsieur Perrault, the Chief Electoral Officer, of expanding accessibility through mobile polls that they would be able to visit in a properly distanced, safe way. That has to be based on the advice of public health experts, assuming that can be done, and I think we've heard views of public health experts that it can be.

The more opportunities you have to get those residents to vote in a safe way, the better it is. In other words, the longer period they could access voting—and you're more of an expert in this than I am, Kirsty—would improve the safety factors necessary for them to participate and not be in a compromised circumstance in terms of their own health or the health of other residents.

I particularly like Chief Electoral Officer Perrault's suggestion of a larger window to get residents of long-term care homes to vote, but, obviously, that has to be done with the expertise of public health authorities. Some homes will be different from others, because of exactly, as you said, the tragic outbreaks that we're seeing currently in this second wave. You mentioned Ontario. I had briefings as the chair of the cabinet committee on COVID on Manitoba and other provinces. It's a concern across the country, so you're right to raise it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Minister LeBlanc.

That ends the formal rounds of questions we have. We really thank you for being present with us for almost two hours now.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You're kicking me out before the two hours is over, Ruby.