Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 10th, 2021

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

In that case, I'll ask you a simple question, and we can come back to this later, if you don't mind.

Right now, the number of COVID‑19 cases is dropping significantly and the vaccine rollout is going well. If that continues and an election is called in the fall, are you still going to move forward with Bill C-19?

I am genuinely curious, because we are really moving in the right direction. Is it possible that you might withdraw Bill C-19?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Therrien.

Like you, I saw the evening news yesterday, and the number of cases in Quebec is way down; the situation around the country is really looking up.

Clearly, we all hope that the number of cases continues to drop, but that can change unexpectedly. Consider our friends in Manitoba, for instance. We hope that doesn't happen, of course.

We will let Elections Canada decide. We realize that the summer is fast approaching, but we hope that we can move this bill forward and that the Senate passes it before Parliament rises.

It will give the Chief Electoral Officer and Elections Canada the discretionary authority to implement the necessary measures, together with local and provincial public health authorities. We will trust Election Canada's judgment as far as implementing the measures is concerned.

We, of course, hope that the bill will pass.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Minister.

We've run out of time, but I felt it was a very important answer to get on the record.

Also, bells have started ringing. They are 30-minute bells, I believe. I was wondering if I could get consent from the committee to continue through the bells so that we can hear from Minister LeBlanc today.

Does that sound good? It does.

All right. We'll keep going and hopefully be able to give you enough minutes to log on to the vote if you need to do so.

How many minutes do you think you guys need before the actual vote to switch over? Is it five minutes, 10 minutes? Okay.

You really don't have to be on camera. You can just vote from your phone. Five minutes, I think, is what most people are saying. Five minutes should be good.

Next we have Mr. Blaikie. You have six minutes, please.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Mr. Minister, or I guess good afternoon, depending on the time difference.

Earlier in your introductory remarks and since then, in some of the answers to questions that committee members have put, we've heard of the importance of some of the modifications that Bill C‑19 would allow in the context of a pandemic election. I wondered if in light of that and in light of the importance of the content of the bill, your government is prepared to commit to not calling an election unilaterally prior to the provisions of Bill C‑19 being in place.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Blaikie, it's a privilege to see you in Winnipeg. You're two hours ahead of me. It is the afternoon here in Fredericton, but good morning to you, sir, in Winnipeg.

The Prime Minister has said clearly that we're not seeking an election and we're not looking for an election. We're focused, as all parliamentarians are—and as I know you, Mr. Blaikie, and your NDP caucus are—on what we can collectively do to protect Canadians during the course of the pandemic.

We think it's prudent—and I think you and I may have this in common, among [Technical difficulty—Editor]—not to be voting no confidence recklessly and often every time a confidence motion comes up. At least you have the virtue of being consistent in saying that you don't want a pandemic election and you want to focus on Canadians. That's what we've been saying. We have some colleagues who consistently and regularly vote no confidence. I've said that it's sort of like playing chicken, hoping the other person swerves.

We think it's responsible to have this legislation in place. However, as I said, we'll continue to focus on the economic recovery and the public health measures necessary for Canadians.

We have some colleagues in the House of Commons, although not in your party, Mr. Blaikie, and not in mine, who seem to want an election, who have publicly called for elections, early elections, and who regularly vote in a way that would trigger an immediate election. It's in that context that I think it's prudent to have this in place. That would be my—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I am very well aware of the voting record, but I'm not hearing a commitment on your government's part not to call an election unilaterally.

I want to ask about the bill itself. In response to Monsieur Therrien's questions, you noted that the government is quite open to amendments. I'm wondering if you might give a bit more commentary as to the scope of the bill. I think sometimes the scope of a bill can be narrowly interpreted for procedural purposes to only pertain to things that are explicitly mentioned in it. However, of course, these are very exceptional circumstances and it's an exceptional bill.

There are things that the committee looked at in its study on preparing for a pandemic election that aren't reflected in the government's initial proposal, although I take your point that it was tabled as an initial proposal. I think of things such as ensuring that people aren't completely reliant on a broadband connection or Internet access, or on a photocopier or scanner, to apply for a special ballot. They should be able to do that in person. The suggestion has been made that Canada Post outlets might be used for that purpose. Because there will be so many more Canadians using special ballots, we've heard about widening a bit the ways they can indicate who they want to vote for. Currently they have to know the spelling of the full name of the local candidate. We've also heard about the challenges in the signature requirements and about the campus vote program possibly being discontinued. These are all things that might be subject to amendment but that aren't necessarily represented in the current text of the bill.

Could you give a little context in terms of the government's understanding of what the scope of this bill is and ought to be, to encourage multi-party collaboration and the opportunity to exploit the expertise of the committee in crafting this bill?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Blaikie, for the question.

Our view, I hope, is a common sense one. The idea here is to put in place the right mix of temporary measures to allow Canadians to safely vote in the context of a potential pandemic election, and obviously to provide safety for the 250,000 people who would work at the polls across the country in an election and those who volunteer.

We've taken note of public comments you've made around the campus voting program. I believe, and the government believes, that Elections Canada should reinstate a campus voting program on campuses. It will reduce pressure in other polling stations and obviously encourage younger people to vote.

I love the idea from a conversation that you and I had. In my rural riding in New Brunswick, there is a Canada Post office in every small community, some of which aren't even incorporated municipalities. I think the postmaster or the postmistress who runs that post office is in a perfect position to be able to help people—often senior citizens, as you said—without Internet access, without photocopiers or scanners at home, to properly have pieces of ID. The idea is that Elections Canada might train these people to assist people applying for special ballots, and the same thing theoretically could be true at Service Canada locations in different communities.

I am hoping that the committee in its wisdom will take a broad view. We certainly will not object to something being beyond the scope of the legislation if it's designed to further our collective best efforts to come up with right mix of measures.

I have taken note of comments you made publicly and in your speech in the House of Commons, and you have identified a number of areas where I think we should quickly work collaboratively to improve the legislation and to adopt amendments. We will continue to work with you and all colleagues on the committee to look at those very issues that you raised, particularly to see how we can make mail-in ballots accessible. I have great faith in Canadians. I don't believe there are widespread examples of electoral fraud or of people trying to cheat on mail-in ballots. I think the opposite is the case. I think they are very secure.

I would really lean on the side of accessibility, including, as you say, in filling out the name of the candidate on a ballot. I voted for myself in a hospital in Montreal in the last election. I knew how to spell my own name, but I'm not sure that some people who wanted to vote for me might have got it exactly right. I think we have to think of flexible common sense ways to ensure that we can do that properly.

Thanks. I just wanted to get that corny line in, Madam Chair.

Did you feel sorry for me because I was—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

—the only voter for you? No, probably not.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

My wife voted in the hospital room with me, so I knew I had two votes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Actually, I have had that same experience, and I feel that could be made easier.

Mrs. Vecchio, you have five minutes.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thanks very much. I know our time is coming to an end soon.

Minister, I want to start off with some things.

Under the original “Adaptation to subsection 214(1), sections 229, 239 and 261, etc.”, it says,

The following paragraphs apply if the last day of the polling period is a holiday:

This has a lot to do with the mail-in ballots and things of that sort. I know there has been a lot of talk about that, and a lot of misunderstanding. I was wondering if the government has ever thought of proposing that there should be no elections on a statutory holiday. Has that ever been considered?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I have seen a number of elections, as I am sure many colleagues have. You're right that if it's the Thanksgiving Monday.... I think we voted on a Tuesday in an election when I was a candidate precisely because Thanksgiving Day was a holiday on a Monday. However, we didn't have the circumstances you described. Our legislation prescribes a three-day polling period finishing on a Monday, but I would think it would be far from ideal, as you say, to run over a statutory holiday in that three-day period. We don't have that many long weekends in a year.

However, I'd be happy to get a technical answer from Al Sutherland, if you want, who is listening now—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

It's okay.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Otherwise, not to cost you your time, we can get back to you in writing with a specific answer to that technical question, if it's helpful for the committee.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

It would be very helpful, and thank you very much, Minister LeBlanc.

I just think that is another way of.... We know that communications are going to be a really important part of this election. That is one thing we already know people are questioning, so why don't we make it simple? The simple answer is not to have a holiday Monday set up as the final day of the election period.

Thanks very much, and I appreciate your listening to that point.

I have another question for you.

Specifically when we're looking at the length of the writ, we know there will be the opportunity to have up to a 52-day writ. It could be from 35 days to 52 days. We have heard from different people that they want it longer because of the mail-in ballots and they want it shorter because [Technical difficulty--Editor] health care. All of these are really critical pieces to look at.

I want to understand who the person is who actually has that decision, the person who says this is the date we're going to vote. Is it the Prime Minister, the Governor General, the Chief Electoral Officer? Who would that be?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I'm going to ask Al Sutherland, assistant secretary to the cabinet, who is joining us, to confirm this. He can correct me.

It is the Prime Minister, I think, who has, within the legislation.... When he asks the Governor General for the writ, the Prime Minister I think has the discretion to suggest the length of the writ within the parameters of the legislation. I remember that in 2015 Mr. Harper called a 79-day election—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Minister LeBlanc, I was part of that. I really appreciate it, but I would really love to hear from Mr. Sutherland—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Sure. Of course.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

—so I could have that technical answer. Thank you.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Al, can you clarify that to make sure I haven't screwed it up?

[Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Office of the Deputy Secretary to Cabinet (Governance), Privy Council Office]

No, you didn't screw it up, sir, but it's on advice of the Prime Minister. It's the Governor General's decision, ultimately.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thank you very much.

The Governor General, of course.... People did bring forward the fact we don't have a Governor General at this time, so we have to be very cautious with that. Ultimately, the advice of the Prime Minister is what will decide this writ period. Without a Governor General, we will be hopeful that it doesn't devolve to an administrative person to make that decision. I think that would be not wise for anyone.

Looking at some of the things that have happened, we know that in Newfoundland there was an extremely and extraordinarily long election that has become extremely controversial as well. I believe the NDP may be putting forward some orders in the courts. I'm very concerned with how that played out.

I would like to know from you as the minister what outreach you have done to ensure we have the most stable.... For people to believe in our elections, what have you done personally to ensure we have that in our next federal election?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, Ms. Vecchio, thank you for the question.

I certainly share your concern in terms of what we can all do, both as elected parliamentarians and as citizens in general, to increase public confidence in the electoral process. The Premier of Newfound and Labrador has been a long-time friend of mine. During that unprecedented circumstance, as you noted, 11 hours before the voting was to begin, the chief electoral officer in that province, because of a sharp increase in COVID cases driven by variants, kept pushing out the election day, and it went to literally all mail-in ballots. The turnout was historically low, I think, in that election, which is not something that any of us would want to see.

That's why we believe this piece of legislation is part of the answer. It's by no means the only answer or perfect answer, but things like making mail-in ballots more accessible, things like allowing nursing homes to vote—

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Mr. LeBlanc—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

—we think are part of the answer.