Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 12th, 2020

[Jason Lee]

I can't answer yes or no to that question. I'm not aware.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Would you be able to table with the committee how many people have actually been hired in Quebec, please?

Is there a way to find that out?

[Jason Lee]

Our organization may not have access to that information. I will promise to provide it if we can.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

I believe the B.C. government announced that it would train up to 7,000 people to work as health care aids in long-term homes.

I would have the same question. Could you look to provide that information please?

I will ask you, Mr. Lee, what outreach has been done by Elections Canada to you? Have you had meetings about how to have elections in long-term care homes?

[Jason Lee]

We have had discussions with the local returning officer for the riding of Charlottetown.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Could you table with the committee what meetings, and the dates of those meetings with Elections Canada, not for the local riding but with your organization, please.

[Jason Lee]

I understand.

I will seek that information and table it.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'm now out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Therrien, you have six minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Good morning, everyone.

I'm going to ask a question. One or both of you can answer, as you prefer. I see no problem either way.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Quebec, when an individual is considered incapable of voting, they are removed from the voters list. Does it work the same way at the federal level?

[Jason Lee]

I would have to investigate further, but it's my understanding that names are not removed from the federal voters list for that reason. We would have to confer with Elections Canada, look in the act and get back to you.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I asked someone at the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer the same question, and his answer was no. I wanted to see if it could happen. That's why I am asking you. I don't mean to put you on the spot.

I will give you an example. If my mother lives in a long-term care facility and she is incapable of voting, I cannot ask that her name be removed from the voters list. I think that could cause problems in the current pandemic situation, for two reasons. You can let me know what you think. Let us say you cannot remove someone's name from the voters list. First, in some cases, care staff will have to do the work of election officials, and second, more people will vote by mail.

I know so little about this, but I believe it could result in more cases of fraud. What do you think?

[Donna Duncan]

It's a great question, and it's an important question and a concern.

How do we make sure we're balancing the rights of the individual, because our residents are still individuals with rights and legal rights under the legislation? Similar to Mr. Lee's comments, it's something that we would welcome an undertaking on to have more clarity to ensure that we're ensuring the integrity of the voting process while also recognizing the rights of our residents.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

You are talking about training individuals to manage the voting process. You are talking about training the care staff working at long-term care facilities. Is that who you are going to train? Did I understand you correctly?

[Jason Lee]

The training, in my mind, is provided through Elections Canada. They would work with the individual homes to identify the elections officers and who would be deputized, or whatever term they want to use. It could be people coming in from outside the home who have been cleared to enter the home, or it could be staff who would be trained. As to the training itself, I would be looking to Elections Canada to provide that training.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Will a component of the training teach people to give up when they can see that an individual is incapable of voting because they are confused or they have severe cognitive issues? Do you think that will be part of the training?

[Jason Lee]

Yes, I believe it would be. The individual would have to be able to clearly identify their preference. They may have cognitive or physical impairments, but if they can clearly articulate their choice, it would be the duty of the elections officer to ensure that their vote is cast to their wishes and to nobody else's.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay, you will understand that I have a great deal of fear about the risk of fraud. It's not because people are ill-intentioned, but the risk is already there in a situation like this. I fear that the risk of fraud is much higher because of the pandemic. It's not your fault. It's simply a concomitant issue that could lead to more cases of fraud.

Time is running out and I have one last question.

You said that in the past it was possible to take individuals out of these facilities to go and vote outside. Before the pandemic, there were polling stations outside these facilities where people could go vote.

Did I understand correctly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Reply in just a few seconds, if you can, quickly.

[Jason Lee]

I would never want to say anything is impossible, but clearly to mobilize across the country to be able to have people leave long-term care to go to external polling stations would be a tremendous drain and strain on the staffing and personal protective equipment supplies. It's possible but difficult.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Blaikie, you have six minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much, and thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

We've heard from a number of elections officials and a number of public health officials who have said they're confident they can deliver an election in a way that is safe in principle. That is, if everybody follows the appropriate procedures, nobody should have anything to worry about in causing a COVID outbreak as a result of a vote.

What they've been reticent to comment on and haven't really tried to quantify is the extent to which we might see people simply choose not to vote because of a level of discomfort with voting, and the disenfranchisement that might occur. This is simply because people, for all of the proper precautions that have been taken by public health officials and election officials, just simply don't have that comfort level.

In terms of your membership, do you think there is a real risk that many people in long-term care, or many seniors more widely for that matter, will just simply be too worried about the potential health consequences of voting? That's whether it's voting in a personal-care home with outside staff who are coming in for that purpose, leaving their home to vote or not being sure they can navigate the application and implementation of a mail-in option. Do you think there's a real risk of seniors and people living in long-term care being disenfranchised if we hold an election during the pandemic?

[Donna Duncan]

I'll start on this one.

Certainly historically, Elections Canada would set up the polling stations in our long-term care homes. If we look at the physical capacity of so many of our residents—and in Ontario, it's 79,000 residents—to be able to go outside to vote, it would take a lot of resources: staffing resources, family resources as well as personal protective equipment.

Also, what we have seen in our long-term care homes among our families, our residents and staff is a much diminished mental health capacity and resilience. There is tremendous fear in our homes in Ontario, fear and anxiety amongst our residents and their family members. We have certainly heard it from our family councils. So having some mechanism to vote within the home is ideal.

We heard from some of our members in Toronto where we had by-elections earlier this fall. There was a certain reticence of people to go outside, as they were wanting to contain all activities in the home.

However, again, having more people come into the home creates fear when you're in a hot spot. We know about the tension even with having family visitors. We know it comes in from the outside. We're open for visitors now. We have far more foot traffic, and the risks are far greater.