Evidence of meeting #115 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commons.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eric Janse  Clerk of the House of Commons
Michel Bédard  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Carolyne Evangelidis  Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons
Patrick McDonell  Sergeant-at-Arms and Corporate Security Officer, House of Commons
Jeffrey LeBlanc  Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons

Noon

Sergeant-at-Arms and Corporate Security Officer, House of Commons

Patrick McDonell

I was the one, as the Sergeant-at-Arms, who sent that memo out on that particular day to keep the offices locked. It wasn't related to what a political party here published.

The intent to visit MPs' offices, we picked that up from a group who had posted on the Internet that it was their intent to visit the offices of members of Parliament and protest. That's why that was published. Also, we picked up off the open source monitoring the possibility of demonstrating at residences of members of Parliament. Indeed, over the past month, there have been demonstrations at the residences of certain members of Parliament.

Noon

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Ms. Mathyssen talked about the difficulty in getting witnesses. I've experienced that as well.

When we were studying Bill C-21, we also had death threats being given to officials, members of the civil service, non-partisan members of the public service who appeared. The chair of the committee had to warn the Conservative members to tone down the way they were questioning the officials because it was directly impacting their safety.

When Mrs. Shanahan read the definition of harassment, it included cyber-bullying and the spreading of malicious rumours.

Should that not apply to MPs and our behaviour as well?

12:05 p.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

That's a very good question. Again, it's something the committee and a potential subcommittee may want to think long and hard about. It's that line between the genuine need to be as free as possible to express views and play the role of a government member or an opposition member and, to your point, the right to have a healthy work environment for members, their staff and anybody else who sets foot on Parliament Hill.

It's a very difficult question.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I want to talk a little more about staff.

It's becoming more difficult as an MP not only to hire staff but to retain staff because of the abuse they're receiving in offices. There are the phone calls, for example, mostly in the community office, but they also read about what's going on, and they see social media. It's becoming difficult to retain people, understandably, despite services that you offer. They just shouldn't be subjected to that in any way, shape or form.

Do you want to comment on the retention and hiring difficulties that MPs are facing?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

You have about 30 seconds.

12:05 p.m.

Chief Human Resources Officer, House of Commons

Carolyne Evangelidis

There's a talent war out there, so it's not limited to MPs, but the environment would definitely contribute more if they were seeing it on social media or in committees. I would encourage you to come back and reach out to us to make sure some preventative measures are put in place for employees to ensure they feel safe both mentally and physically. I would urge you to contact us.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you.

Colleagues, that concludes the first panel for today's portion of our study. I would like to thank Mr. LeBlanc, Mr. McDonell, Mr. Bédard, Mr. Janse and Ms. Evangelidis for being with us.

Colleagues, that was a productive, efficient and, most important, respectful first half of our conversation today. It was very informative and will serve as a beautiful catalyst for what's to come.

We're going to suspend for five minutes to set up our next panel. We will resume shortly.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Colleagues, I'm going to call this meeting back to order.

For our second panel today, we have with us the honourable Greg Fergus, Speaker of the House of Commons. Welcome to PROC, Mr. Speaker.

Colleagues, as you know, we are here today continuing our conversation on harassment, that we had just undertaken in the past couple of hours. As per the last round of questioning, we will have a first round that comprises six minutes to members of each party. Then we will move on to a second round, which will be slightly reduced in time.

Colleagues, I have just a reminder in terms of the protocols around our audio devices. Out of respect for our translators, their health and safety and the hard work that they undertake on our behalf, please make sure that we are placing, when not in use, our earpieces on the stickers.

I note that Mr. LeBlanc, Mr. Bédard, Mr. Janse and Ms. Evangelidis are still with us, so welcome back.

With that, colleagues, we are going to get right into things.

Mr. Speaker, there are 10 minutes available to you for opening remarks. With that, I turn it over to you.

12:10 p.m.

Hull—Aylmer Québec

Liberal

Greg Fergus LiberalSpeaker of the House of Commons

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the committee for inviting me to appear today to discuss this important issue of harassment at the House of Commons.

You have already heard from House officials on this complex matter. I understand that they spoke to you in detail about the policies in place in the House of Commons to address issues of workplace harassment relating to employees, as well as harassment issues between members of Parliament.

As committee members know, it has been my objective to improve the atmosphere in the House. Decorum is an issue that has been raised with me not only by members, but also by the general public. How members treat each other in our workplace is, of course, of interest to all of us.

The House of Commons is one of the oldest institutions in our country. The way it conducts its proceedings is even older. The House must find ways to balance these deeply rooted traditions with the expectations of modern workplaces. These measures exist to foster a work environment where everyone feels safe and confident.

As Speaker, I play a key role in the management of the House of Commons, as I am the chair of the Board of Internal Economy, the body responsible for the administrative and financial affairs of the House. I am also responsible for presiding over parliamentary proceedings, and my remarks will focus on this latter area of responsibility.

The anti-harassment measures, detailed by officials earlier, cover employees who work on Parliament Hill. That includes staff of the House of Commons and staff working for members of Parliament. Employers of these categories of staff are subject in various ways to the provisions of these measures.

However, other than the code of conduct dealing with sexual harassment between members, there are currently no workplace measures in place to address other forms of harassment that might occur between members of Parliament within the context of proceedings in the House and committees. The House is not unique in this regard, as many other assemblies do not apply internal codes of conduct to their proceedings. While there could be instances of harassment that are physical or sexual in connection to the proceedings in Parliament, generally, the likeliest form of harassment in this context would be through the spoken word when members are participating in debate in the chamber or in a committee meeting.

As we know, freedom of speech is one of the most important privileges that members enjoy in carrying out their parliamentary duties, either in the House or in committee.

On April 29, 1977, the Special Committee on the Rights and Immunities of Members presented its first report, which can be found on pages 720 to 729 of the Journals for that day. The report says that, for members of Parliament, freedom of speech is “a fundamental right without which they would be hampered in the performance of their duties. It permits them to speak in the House without inhibition, to refer to any matter or express any opinion as they see fit, to say what they feel needs to be said in the furtherance of the national interest and the aspirations of their constituents”.

It affords its members the ability to engage in debate in a robust and frequently pointed fashion. This is an age-old feature of our House, and is the cornerstone of our Westminster-style parliamentary tradition. It ensures that a member has full latitude in pursuing any matter of public interest or of importance to them. As such, this is an immunity that is fundamental to our proceedings. I must emphasize, however, that this does not mean that members have no protections in the chamber or committees from inappropriate comments from other members.

Another ancient principle of our tradition is found in the rights enjoyed by the House as a collectivity, catalogued in House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, at pages 119 to 141. Chief among them is “the regulation of its own...affairs”. This refers to the House's exclusive authority to control “its own debates, agenda and proceedings as they relate to its legislative and deliberative functions”.

Related to this is the House's exclusive right to discipline its members. Through these powers, the House has tools to hold any member accountable for any actions that may be viewed as conduct unbecoming and misbehaviour, including in the exercise of their individual right to freedom of speech. The House has exercised these powers in the past to address cases of inappropriate behaviour by a member.

The concerns that have arisen for some time about unparliamentary language in the House, more specifically language of a personal nature used to attack, denigrate or intimidate, are ultimately matters of decorum. One of the things we can do to improve the decorum of our proceedings is to remove those aspects of debate that seek to personalize political criticism.

As we have seen in the past, personal attacks and criticisms often provoke strong reactions. Not only do they cause chaos during our proceedings, but they can actually be perceived by the subject as a form of harassment.

A carrot and stick may be required. Members' goodwill can be appealed to to voluntarily improve the atmosphere in the House. However, stronger measures may be needed on rare occasions. In this respect, if the power to enforce proper decorum rests in my hands, broader disciplinary tools are properly the purview of the House.

I would suggest that the House be prepared to use its power to discipline in those rare cases where statements may cross the line, bordering or reaching the threshold of serious misconduct. While the House has effective disciplinary tools and a strong commitment from the chair to make improvements to decorum, it cannot be done without the co-operation of all members.

The second point I'd like to address is whether stronger rules are needed to address instances of harassment amongst members. As the committee knows, contained in the Standing Orders of the House of Commons are two appendices. The first is the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons, which deals with obligations of members to avoid conflicts of interest of a pecuniary nature when carrying out their parliamentary functions. The second, the Code of Conduct for Members of the House of Commons: Sexual Harassment Between Members, defines sexual harassment and sets out a dispute resolution mechanism when complaints arise.

Neither code contains rules for other forms of harassment between members. Some see this lack of rules as a shortcoming. I would simply remind you that any attempt to expand the scope of these codes of conduct should be done in a way that respects the privileges of the House and its members.

Before I conclude my remarks, I would like to talk to you about another subject, social networks. Members of Parliament are well aware of this subject because, unfortunately, they are often the target of despicable and sometimes criminal comments made about them on various platforms. These comments are conveyed by cowardly individuals through anonymous accounts. Their anonymity makes it very difficult for the security services or the police to investigate.

While never to the same degree, there have been instances of members posting comments regarding fellow members on social media that some would qualify as inappropriate or even harassment. While obviously a serious matter, it is not one that the Speaker has jurisdiction over. It is a long-standing practice that the Speaker does not comment on statements made outside of the chamber.

I am grateful to the committee for their attention to this matter. It is important work, and it is timely.

Those are my thoughts on the issue. I hope my testimony will help the committee in its work in considering this matter.

I very much look forward to the recommendations that this committee might be able to offer the House. I remain at your disposal to further assist the committee as it moves forward on this study.

I thank you for your attention, and I look forward to your questions.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Ms. Rempel Garner, you have the floor for six minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Speaker.

Speaker, you're responsible for overseeing the harassment policy for the House of Commons. Is that correct?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

That is correct.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Would you characterize a physical altercation between members in the chamber as a potential instance of harassment?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

To be clear, I should just modify the first. I'm responsible for sexual harassment between members, as it was listed.

If there was a physical altercation, yes, that would be behaviour that would be considered unbecoming.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

On May 18, 2016, the Prime Minister grabbed late Conservative MP Gord Brown by the arm and then elbowed former NDP MP Ruth Ellen Brosseau in the chest. Ms. Brosseau expressed that she had been injured.

In that moment, you're recorded in Hansard as describing Ms. Brosseau's complaint as “reminiscent of a dive in the 2006 World Cup” and that she was exaggerating.

On what basis did you arrive at the finding that Ms. Brosseau was either diving or exaggerating what had happened in the House?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

If I recall, my statement on that wasn't in regard to Madam Brosseau's accounting of the incident, but of other folks' accounting of the incident, which was....

Sorry, go ahead.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Are you saying she experienced it differently than what she had said in the House?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

No, I think she experienced it exactly the way she expressed it in the House.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I'm just curious at how you arrived at that it was “a dive”.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I was commenting on how other people were characterizing it, not what Madam Brosseau had said. It was about what other people had described it as being.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Your exact statement was that it happened “exactly as the Prime Minister had described it”. That's your statement and you're now responsible for overseeing the harassment policy.

Given this instance and the numerous instances of partisanship you've been accused of while you've been sitting in your term as Speaker, do you think that opposition MPs would feel safe or empowered to report instances of any sort of harassment, given that this department comes under your supervision?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

They could have complete confidence that issues of harassment, if raised, will be given a full treatment under my office.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I don't think so, Speaker.

Oftentimes women don't report harassment because men in spaces of power, where they have demonstrable past experiences of holding onto that power and protecting those in their circle.... That's where justice isn't served

My concern with your partisanship is mostly to do with this issue. We are discussing a very serious issue here. This is something that impacts all MPs. I am not sure if I reported something to you that you would treat me fairly and that I wouldn't have my issue twisted for partisan gain because of the repeated instances of partisanship. That's why I have lost faith in your speakership.

Given all of this, do you think that the fact that I have to ask this question or make these statements will prevent MPs or staff members from coming forward and from reporting instances of harassment because of your track record in this issue?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I don't believe so.

I believe that members should feel fully confident in my ability to ensure that, to the fullest extent of the rules that have been set forward by the House of Commons, when they bring forward serious issues such as harassment, especially sexual harassment, it would be treated with the utmost seriousness and to the fullest extent possible.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Yet in the moment, when you had an opportunity as a peer in the House of Commons to give a woman space and hear her argument out, your exact words were, “What happened was exactly as the Prime Minister had described it”.

If I came in and I said, “This happened with a Liberal member or a Conservative member,” whose side would you take?