Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 20th, 2024

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you for that, but what's also important are not just specific incidents—of course, they are important—but to the whole question around what the government did about foreign interference issues and concerns, it does go to the question of policy and is not necessarily tied to a specific incident. If those documents are withheld, how will the commissioner be able to determine what the government did about it? Those are precisely related to policy discussions. Shouldn't it be up to the commissioner to determine whether or not that information is relevant and important to enable her to fulfill her mandate, and not the government? If it were up to the government, we wouldn't actually be sitting here at the moment. We probably wouldn't even need the inquiry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Ms. Kwan, we're over time, but I'm going to permit an answer to your question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I agree with Ms. Kwan in the sense that the cabinet documents that considered policy choices, legislative options and so on around foreign interference were the four documents that were given to the commission. Those were the times when I and my predecessors went to cabinet with specific proposals around strengthening our democracy, so those documents were shared.

I don't want to be technical with Ms. Kwan, but no government—and it's a fundamental principle of a Westminster parliamentary system—since Confederation will evacuate cabinet confidence to somebody other than the sitting head of the government. In this case it's the Prime Minister personally, as it was when Mr. Mulroney waived cabinet confidence, when Pierre Elliott Trudeau did so with respect to the McDonald commission in the 1970s, and when the current Prime Minister did with respect to the Hogue commission. That is well known. It is very clear in the terms of reference, Mr. Chair, that protecting solicitor-client privilege and cabinet confidence was well understood.

Now, the back-and-forth process will obviously allow the Hogue commission to do the important work that I agree with Ms. Kwan they need to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thanks very much, Ms. Kwan.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, now that you've confirmed that a mere four cabinet documents have been turned over to Madam Justice Hogue, how many cabinet documents are being withheld from her?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, again, I don't have the specific number. Those are decisions that perhaps Madame Drouin can elaborate on, but I also think that it's a fundamental principle in this—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Well, Mr. Chair, it was just a simple question: How many documents have been withheld? You can't answer that. I find it astounding that a mere four documents were turned over to Madam Justice Hogue, which Madame Drouin said were deemed to be the most relevant. Who determined those documents to be the most relevant, the Prime Minister, the PCO or Madam Justice Hogue? Who determined that?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I did, with your House leader, Mr. Cooper, last summer.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I don't think that is accurate, and since that time Madam Justice Hogue requested additional documents, documents that are being withheld by your government and that go to the heart, potentially, of what the Prime Minister did or didn't do about foreign interference.

I'm going to ask you a different question, because we know that you confirmed, by refusing to answer when I asked you, that the Prime Minister will not turn over all of the documents requested by Madam Justice Hogue.

However, on another matter of concern, when you appeared at the public safety committee I asked you twice if you could provide the assurance that no one serving in Justin Trudeau's cabinet is among the MPs named in the NSICOP report who wittingly collaborated with a hostile foreign state. Twice you refused to answer that question, so I'm going to ask you a third time: Can you provide that assurance?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, Mr. Cooper has asked that question a number of times in committee and in the House of Commons. My answer remains the same.

I took note of what Deputy Commissioner Flynn of the RCMP said when he testified yesterday before a committee as well. Getting into precisions with respect to specific intelligence information, including the numbers of people who may be a source of comments in various intelligence documents, is not something that we're permitted to do.

Again, Mr. Cooper can ask the same question, but he's going to get the same answer.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

In fact, the Prime Minister saw the NSICOP report. The Prime Minister made the final determination with respect to the redactions. The Prime Minister blacklisted the names of those MPs.

I'll ask you this: Can you provide the assurance that once Madam Justice Hogue completes her work, the names of the MPs who wittingly collaborated with hostile foreign states will be made public?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, just to correct, again, another falsehood that Mr. Cooper asserted—that the Prime Minister made those redactions in the NSICOP report—I would draw him to comments of Alex Ruff, who made it very clear before the committee that none of the redactions of the NSICOP report were made by any political person—by a political staffer or by a minister.

The idea that the Prime Minister has a black marker and spends his time redacting the NSICOP—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

But the Prime Minister has the final authority, Minister, and you know it. I asked a simple question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Cooper knows—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I asked a simple question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, Mr. Cooper knows—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Hey, hey. Just a minute here.

First of all, the interpreters have a job to do. Second of all, no quality answer and no quality question can be given or asked when we can't make out what's being said.

I've stopped the clock.

Minister, I'll give you the floor. You have about 15 seconds to finish that response.

Mr. Cooper, there's a minute and 21 seconds remaining. You'll have the opportunity to resume your line of questioning.

Minister, the floor is yours.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just think it's important not to assert something in a preamble to a question that's completely inaccurate and that his colleague clarified, and to then move on to another question. It doesn't do a service for the public understanding of this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thanks, Minister.

I'll restart the clock, Mr. Cooper. You have a minute and 21 seconds.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, answer the question. Can you provide the assurance that once Madam Justice Hogue completes her work, the names of the MPs who wittingly and knowingly collaborated with hostile foreign states, or any foreign state for that matter, will be made public?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to offer legal advice to a court of appeal justice on what would be her obligations in terms of a public report with respect to national security information.

Again, if you assert a falsehood in the question and ask for an answer, it doesn't make the premise accurate.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You can't provide that assurance, then. Can you at least provide the assurance, given that the Prime Minister knows the names of the MPs who wittingly collaborated with hostile foreign states, including, potentially, MPs in the Liberal caucus, that none of those MPs will have their nomination papers signed by the Prime Minister to run in the next election?

Can you provide at least that assurance, if you're not going to be transparent in any other respect?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

You have 10 seconds to answer that, Minister.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I think it might be more constructive for Mr. Cooper's leader to accept the government's offer to receive the security clearance and see the unredacted report that Mr. Cooper seems to be happy to talk about, not having seen it. It might be more useful if his leader saw the report. Then he might be able to make those very judgments that Mr. Cooper referred to a second ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper, and thank you, Minister.

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours for five minutes.