Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[Madeline Nwokeji]

Yes, I want to second that.

I absolutely do agree that there should be a review of certain guidelines for members of Parliament and behaviour in the legislature. There's a lot of work to be done, and with the changing environment, as things keep changing, we particularly talked about cyber-bullying and online harassment, as everything is now posted online.

I think we should keep in mind, as I mentioned earlier in my speech, that members of Parliament are role models and have to portray themselves in a manner that the community will respect and youth will look up to, especially young people who are looking to be in Parliament. The policies and behaviours that are acceptable or not acceptable among peers in Parliament are things to constantly think about.

[Harmy Mendoza]

I wasn't impressed. I have watched a few times, especially when there is legislation that is important for the line of work I do, and it did seem, for lack of better words, a bit too much for me. I was expecting a different type of behaviour from those who are representing our country and doing this important work.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Have you had the opportunity, by any chance, to view the documentary entitled: Backlash: Misogyny in the Digital Age? I invite you to do so. Every time I take part in international missions, all the women's groups, even Equal Voice, give a presentation. This documentary focuses precisely on the problem you're talking about.

As a member of Parliament, I can denounce what I see because I find it unacceptable. We talked about a process. In your opinion, is this a first step in reducing the animosity or lack of respect we see here in the House of Commons?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

For witnesses, we have about 60 seconds left, so whoever responds should please be mindful of that.

[Madeline Nwokeji]

I do believe that there should be stronger procedures in terms of MP-to-MP interaction and, as I said, in terms of language and behaviours that are acceptable or unacceptable, whether it's in the House, outside of the House or online.

I do believe that stronger measures and maybe potential consequences will help to deter certain behaviours, and I think that would be a great step toward having more respect and treating everyone the same, regardless of age and gender, and respecting everyone's opinion. As I mentioned earlier, members come from all different walks of life, and we need to be respectful of that.

I think training and a revision of certain policies will help to at least provide a little bit of a deterrence for certain members of Parliament in terms of communication and behaviours in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Ms. Mathyssen, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you as well to the witnesses for appearing on this important study today.

As a staff person who worked on the Hill 10 years ago, which is very strange to me to say, I want to acknowledge the 10-year anniversary of the death of Nathan Cirillo and the impact it had on us here.

We spoke a little about the pledge. One of the reasons I thought about bringing it forward here is that it concerns me that we can and should have a lot of rules and regulations that are clear and that are well communicated, as you said. I understand that entirely, but it doesn't necessarily get to what is needed, so I thought that the pledge would be more peer pressure. The second a member signs it, they think twice.

How effective do you feel that peer pressure can be if we all take that moment and we're consistently talking about it here on the Hill?

That's to all of you, or any of you.

[Harmy Mendoza]

I think it would be very effective. You are right. I think one of us spoke about that in terms of prevention and preparing ourselves to learn about that and recognize the signs and speak about it.

I talk about bystander intervention and role-playing. I also talk about research we undertook at WomanACT. On top of your supports through the different services that you have, peer support is very important: Survivors told us that when it comes to bringing forward a complaint, the best outcome is not only confidentiality but feeling safe. I think peer support is very important when it comes to the response on this key issue, so I highlight it as an important part.

We talk about all of the different legislation and really good work that you are doing, including restraining orders. They are tools, but that's it. We're not going to solve it with that alone. We need prevention and training, and everyone, everywhere, needs to do it.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

To build off of that, having sat on the status of women committee, on the national defence committee, we saw at the veterans affairs committee that they were discussing military sexual trauma and the impacts on veterans. We soon—hopefully—will be dealing with a bill that tries to change some of the rules around military sexual trauma.

Some of those committees received trauma-informed GBA+ training so that when witnesses come forward, there aren't additional retraumatizations and there's an understanding there.

However, it strikes me that all members need to receive that training. What would you say about that, in terms of those proactive tools?

[Harmy Mendoza]

Everyone, everywhere, absolutely needs to be aware of how trauma impacts, how we don't want to retraumatize by implementing policies in a way that is not appropriate. The policies will, hopefully, take you one step further, but you need to make sure that all the frameworks are properly applied to the procedures so as to not retraumatize people, lose trust or lose really important politicians, women who could be at the front.

You talk about different sectors. That's actually part of the work we have been doing at WomanACT. We have been going out and knocking on different doors from different sectors that are, as I'm going to call them, the “non-social services sector”, just for lack of.... I don't want to go into it specifically, but yes, especially for male-dominated workplaces, we need to start having conversations about this problem that we all have.

The statistics are there. It's very clear that there is a problem that continues to exist. We can only hope to eliminate it if we work in different areas of the spectrum. Legislation, the work that you do, is very important, but other areas of work are as crucial and critical.

I'm going to end by speaking about something that we talk about a lot at our end. It's called “climate assessments”. What that means is that when we knock on different sectors' doors.... Sometimes they actually come and knock at our door and say, “Hmm, we think we have an issue here.” We say, “Okay. How do you know?” They say, “Well, there was this complaint.” We say, “Okay, what else do you know? What else is happening in your organization?” Then we propose undertaking climate assessments. Why is that? It's because that will give a better sense of what and how big the issue is, and interventions can be tailored that are more applicable to that particular sector. That means, for example, what language do they use?

You talk about the military. You know, there are these rules of engagement that they talk about. How does that intersect or in any way align to anti-oppressive training? Maybe it doesn't—maybe not at all—but I think that it is important to start having those conversations. What are the areas where we could actually align, to some extent, to recognize that there is an issue here?

For us, for people like me who work in this sector, it's about women dying every day in Canada in the context of gender-based violence and IPV and women experiencing workplace harassment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Madam Mathyssen.

Madame Vien, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ladies, thank you for taking the time to testify today.

I'll start by trying to reassure you about the ability of parliamentarians to work together, regardless of political affiliation. It's no secret that safety is a very important issue for the political party to which I belong.

Before coming to the Parliament of Canada, I sat in another parliament, that of Quebec. I ended my 15-year career there as Minister of Labour. I feel I left an important legacy in this last position. Among all the changes I made to labour standards, one has to do with time limits and what happens when you leave a workplace. We're talking a lot about what happens upstream this morning, but we need to talk about that too.

In Quebec, people were given three months to file a complaint, regardless of whether they were sitting MPs or former employees. To me, this timeframe was clearly insufficient. Indeed, we all know of cases of harassment or violence in the workplace that prove this. It takes time for people to understand what's happened and what's going on inside them. In Quebec, the law has been changed to increase the time limit from three months to two years. What I heard in terms of feedback from the groups that spoke out at the time was that the two-year timeframe was a good one and that it allowed people to take the necessary steps.

At the federal level, there is no issue for current employees, since there is no statute of limitations. In recent years, former employees have been given three months to lodge a complaint. Since 2021, there has been no time limit. I therefore tabled, with all my Conservative Party colleagues, Bill C‑378. Ms. Mendoza, you seem to be familiar with it. I'm glad you are.

Thanks to this bill, we're going to take a step forward. We're going to increase the time limit from three months to two years, and we're going to allow former employees who have not received satisfaction following an incident notice to file a complaint.

I now come to your comment, Ms. Mendoza. There are, of course, times when we work very well together. The proof is that this bill will probably receive the assent of all parliamentarians, and it's a Conservative Party initiative.

In your opinion, will this two-year period that will be granted, God willing, as we say back home, be sufficient?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

You have 60 seconds left, Ms. Mendoza.

[Harmy Mendoza]

Yes, I would absolutely agree. The more time we can give those who are experiencing harassment to report, the better.

[Chi Nguyen]

Can I follow up on that?

We recommend against timelines so that people can come forward long after, because sometimes someone is too traumatized to come forward, and it is not the right moment, professionally, for them to come forward. In order for people to be able to seek remedies and work through the process, we recommend not having time limits.

[Madeline Nwokeji]

I would also agree with that.

Women already face tremendous barriers in the workplace, whether in terms of rising up or, for example, in the case of a new MP who has just begun their career. Having all those barriers in the workplace and having a short time frame might not necessarily be conducive to their reporting.

Also, we talk about whom they're reporting to, which was mentioned earlier. The person they're reporting to also has a big role in this. If there is some form of intimidation or a fear of reprisal, it may not necessarily come out. It might be four or five years before they're able to speak out about their trauma.

We recommend a little bit more time and flexibility in the harassment reporting procedures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mrs. Vien.

Ms. Fortier, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies, thank you so much for being here this morning. We're having a really good conversation. I really like what I'm hearing from Mrs. Vien, because I think we need to put mechanisms in place that move us forward.

First of all, I want to say that I remember where I was ten years ago to the day. I was at La Cité college, which is 10 kilometres from here. There was a lockdown during the situation, and I have clear memories of it. We must recognize the memory of Corporal Nathan Cirillo and all the people who lived through the situation, not only in the Parliamentary Precinct, but throughout the national capital region.

I also want to thank MP Lindsay Mathyssen and Senator Marilou McPhedran for their parliamentary engagement initiative. For our part, MP Pam Damoff encouraged us to make this parliamentary commitment. In my opinion, it's important to be even more aware of what's going on, and that's why I signed this parliamentary commitment.

Ms. Nguyen, I'd like to continue the discussion on the study conducted by your organization, Equal Voice. We talk a lot about recruitment, but I wonder if you're also interested in retention. I must admit that, as an elected official and as someone who has been recruited, I have a lot of questions. How can we make sure that women who get involved in politics, like me, want to stay in politics?

Have you conducted any studies on ways to encourage women, among other things, to stay in politics?

[Chi Nguyen]

I spent the day on Saturday having conversations about this at the Association of Municipalities of Ontario, looking particularly at retention and recruitment of diverse candidates. I think the piece that's really compelling for women is to be reminded over and over again of the powerful work that they're able to do, and that the reason they're here is that they see an opportunity for change and they want to contribute to that.

Every time we've spoken to a woman in office, governing anywhere, from every political party, they've talked about their achievements, and despite all of the burdens and the challenges, they have things to be very proud of. That's absolutely critical to reminding people of why they're here in service. That's how we shift the narrative to help women stay—and men. We need great people doing the phenomenal work that you do. It's thankless, and we appreciate it.

A huge piece of this work is to be reminded and to share it with each other. Those success stories are what are going to continue to propel your efforts forward.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

In addition to what's happening at the federal level, we also talked about what's happening in the provinces and territories.

Are you also interested in what's happening between elected officials in the municipalities? Just across the river, in Gatineau, Mayor France Bélisle has stepped down, for all sorts of reasons. I know that other mayors in Quebec have been in a similar situation. We've heard a lot about it. I imagine it's also the case elsewhere in Canada.

Can you give us any information on this subject? Do you have any food for thought that would enable us to continue this study, also taking into account what's happening in municipalities?

[Chi Nguyen]

That's a great question. I think it's really critical. Another woman mayor was elected. There are still women who are prepared to come forward.

I think it's about the kind of peer support networks and ways in which we can resource the opportunities around safety. I know that for some communities, having caucuses of community members that look more like them allows them to unpack the additional intersectional barriers that some elected officials face or carry with them. That's really important work as well. Creating those safe spaces, formally and informally, for parliamentarians to be able to connect and to talk through things that are really tough is really important. I think those are really important mechanisms that could help in this area.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Mendoza, earlier you talked about mechanisms that should be put in place, which should be based on certain principles.

Could you elaborate on that? What kind of mechanism should we adopt, in this context?

What are the basic criteria that would enable us to put in place the best possible mechanism in the context of this study?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Again, I'm sorry.

Ms. Mendoza, please answer quite rapidly. Thank you.

[Harmy Mendoza]

Okay. I have a couple of words on frameworks.

Intersectionality is an important word, and I talked about an example of that. In an anti-oppressive approach, please don't forget that your training needs to include role-playing and bystander interventions.

I would strongly encourage you to work with community organizations to support that. They are the experts. They do this work every day, and they are aware of the trends we're facing or seeing in our communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.