Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

It's a busy weekend for all of us.

Ms. Reusch, in a bit of a different angle, I want to ask you about youth being involved in our democratic process. You mentioned and highlighted in your opening statement about voting, which is obviously very key—getting younger people to cast a ballot.

One of the other things I think is interesting and hasn't been discussed or raised too much yet in our deliberations on Bill C-65 is young people working for Elections Canada and participating through employment, if they're students or looking for part-time work or extra hours.

One of the things I want to raise or flag and maybe get your initial opinion on is clause 31, which is proposed subsection 171(2) of the bill, which would be adding two extra advance poll days. I'll also ask Mr. Mulroy to respond as well, in his work as a lawyer for disability rights. This is regarding young people, those with disabilities and seniors.

Having four days of advance polls now requires somebody to work 48 hours over four days. The polls are open 12 hours per day. By going now to six, which is the way it's written and if Elections Canada doesn't change its employment rules, we're asking a young person, a person with disabilities or a senior to work 72 hours over six days, plus their travel time each day, plus set-up and take down, plus the training.

Do you see that if we don't get some change, or I think what's been done before, we're going to see young people not participate by being able to work the elections and participate in that aspect of our democracy?

[Samantha Reusch]

I don't have an easy answer to this question. I know it's something that we're working with Elections Canada on to recruit more young people to work during the elections. I hadn't considered the time frame of the actual working hours. I'd be happy to submit a longer response in writing. My initial thought is that perhaps there could be additional recruitment done, but I'm not sure about the exact details.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

That's one of the things we should get clarification on, because if we're asking for that requirement, as what's been done with the four days, and there's no change to the six, we might see all demographics, not just young people, saying they can't do 72 hours over six days, plus the other requirements. We face further challenges to voting accessibility if there are not enough poll workers in local communities and neighbourhoods to do that.

Mr. Mulroy, from your end—and your work for disability rights, and your work as a lawyer—from an employment perspective as well, with Elections Canada, would that be a flag to you? Should we be getting some clarification or details from Elections Canada on how it would handle this advance poll day change?

[Daniel Mulroy]

It's certainly outside of my expertise, but you've raised an interesting question in that it may. Getting more information on that would likely be beneficial.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I appreciate that.

[Daniel Mulroy]

From an accessibility perspective, the more days that an individual is able to vote is certainly better. The system that's being purported is in-person paper ballots, which still has a number of barriers for persons with disabilities.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Just recognizing my time, I'd be interested in any comments that the witnesses would have in writing afterwards on this. I call it an undercurrent with some of these bills, where we have good intentions—I'm not saying they are not on adding advance poll days—but we need to make sure we have sufficient election workers. We need to ensure there are polls in neighbourhoods that are close to where people live and are accessible in that format. Any comments you may have on the employment side and the accessibility of polls close to home would be much appreciated.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

Mrs. Romanado, the floor will be yours for six minutes.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I want to follow up on something that my colleague, MP Duncan, mentioned. He mentioned in his line of questioning an advance to the date of October 13. Obviously, we cannot as it is Thanksgiving, and Monday, October 6, is actually Sukkot, a Jewish high holiday. The week prior is September 29, the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, and there are municipal elections in Newfoundland and Labrador. The week prior to that is Rosh Hashanah, and September 1 is Labour Day. I've looked at the length of the campaign. It has to be between 36 days and 50 days. Mathematically, I looked at all of the Mondays in the fall. Unfortunately, there are many Mondays that have conflicts.

Further to that, my question is actually for Ms. Reusch. I had the great pleasure of being on the electoral reform committee back in 2016. Apathy is Boring presented to us at that time. It was on October 3, 2016, in Montreal, and Carolyn Loutfi presented to us. We heard from her that—and you mentioned something along these lines—if youth don't vote in their first two elections upon eligibility, it's very likely they will not continue to vote. At that time, it was suggested that, perhaps, we should look at piloting online voting. You didn't mention that in your remarks. You did mention the weekend voting, which I'll get to.

It's not something we did recommend at that time for many reasons. We now see a lot more with respect to foreign interference in elections, and the use of cyber-attacks. What are your thoughts on that? You didn't mention it. I just want to know—has there been a change in your position on that?

[Samantha Reusch]

We don't have a formal position on online voting at the moment. It's something that, to my knowledge, hasn't been explored by Elections Canada up to this point, so it feels like something that's quite far away. I know some provinces are piloting various methods. Similar to you, obviously, they are ensuring that the elections are secure, and that Canadian electors have faith in the results. How the results are counted is paramount for us, given that we've seen, especially since 2016, a declining trust in our elections.

We have a fear that a declining trust could extend to electoral administration, as we've seen in other parts of the world. That would be a primary consideration that I would just name. Any study that's done should also consider online voting and other forms of ballots or voting

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I'm going to build on that. I just returned from the Halifax International Security Forum, where we discussed a lot about disinformation, misinformation, the use of AI and the concerns about deepfakes. We already have a situation where citizens are very wary about what they're seeing online: Is it, in fact, true; is it not?

Do you think that Bill C-65 goes far enough in terms of preventing the use of deepfakes? We heard from the Chief Electoral Officer who expressed one concern. It's one thing to have a candidate or someone pretending to be a candidate, but it's another thing to have a voice-over or a video-over of a candidate saying something that the candidate actually did not say.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Samantha Reusch]

I think it's a difficult question to answer because, of course, I think everyone thinks they're capable of spotting disinformation, misinformation, deepfakes and all those things. In all likelihood, we're probably way worse at it than we think, so our level of confidence is perhaps making it more challenging for us to recognize these things.

It's a little bit outside the scope of my expertise, in that I'm not an expert in AI or deepfakes, but I will say that I do think that the Chief Electoral Officer's recommendations are good ones and that they should certainly be considered by this committee.

We do support the recommendations made, certainly, around strengthening the legal framework around the regulations on foreign interference, and I think that will also make a big difference in this case.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

My last question is on weekend voting. I'm looking at the chair, and I think I have some time.

I know that at the time of the study on electoral reform, there were a lot of concerns for people, especially young people, who work on weekends. They go to school during the week, so weekends are their only opportunity to work to be able to pay for their studies.

We also heard from gig workers, people who work in the retail industry and so on and so forth, as well as people who work Monday to Friday, nine to five, saying that the only days they have off are Saturday and Sunday. They have to do the groceries, the laundry, clean the house and so on, so they actually prefer to keep it on the Monday.

Is this still, in your experience, the feeling that you're hearing? Do you have any data to support why we should move to weekend voting?

[Samantha Reusch]

Thank you for that question.

As I said, in our experience and in the research that we've done, we found that almost 80% of young people felt that weekend voting would make it easier for them to participate. Everyone has different circumstances. There are many young people who work, as you say, Monday to Friday, nine to five, and having two days as opposed to one, I think, is beneficial.

I know there are some challenges with three-day voting, particularly around polling stations, leasing and various administrative elements that are a little bit outside of my scope, but I think it's important that we study and consider the different options, which would include weekend voting.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Would you be able to table with this committee any of the research that you have done with respect to that? That would be very helpful.

[Samantha Reusch]

Absolutely.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thanks, Mrs. Romanado.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to refer to quite a bit of information. I'll take a look at the whole situation.

I voted for the first time in 1995, and now I'm with the Bloc Québécois. That says a lot. It's very important to have a good experience for your first and second vote. I couldn't agree more.

That said, there's also human behaviour. Let's face it, when time is limited to go and vote, compared to when you have time to go tomorrow or the day after, the situation is different. Sometimes, we find that when there's plenty of time to do it, it doesn't necessarily mean that more people will go.

Besides, here in Canada, voting measures are extremely voter-friendly when you look at what's happening in municipalities, such as in Quebec. We need to find legal and impartial accommodation measures so that the Chief Electoral Officer can do his job.

I was hearing about voice recognition earlier. I'll ask him if that's an option. I think we've devoted enough study hours to cyber-attacks and fake news, among other things. We're very skittish.

That said, I realize that we're going to run out of resources soon. Earlier, my colleague said that we need more time, but that young people need to work, and that those who don't work could work. In the end, there's no winning recipe.

I find it interesting that we're discussing this together. Beyond what may be hidden—I'm insinuating that we're changing the date because it changes things in some people's pockets, but I'm not going there—at the end of the day, we have a Chief Electoral Officer who is exceptional in this democratic context, and we must have confidence in him. As in Quebec and elsewhere, he can very well postpone the election date. Why is it always Monday? If Monday is Thanksgiving, it'll be Tuesday. There's no winning solution.

That said, I think we're opening the door very wide because, yes, there are federal, provincial and municipal elections. Of course, there will be some overlap, but are we doing this on purpose? I think the Chief Electoral Officer has all the expertise to make this choice. What do you think?

[Samantha Reusch]

When it comes to selecting the election date itself, yes, having confidence in a non-partisan Chief Electoral Officer is obviously ideal. I know from experience, having worked with them, that they put a lot of thought and time into thinking through exactly how to administer the election in a way that is open to as many people as possible.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Mulroy, has the possibility of using voice recognition with biometrics been considered? We know that many financial institutions use this method.

I lived with a father who was in a vulnerable situation and needed support. For me, this is important. There are solutions rather than making big changes. Is voice recognition a possibility that has been analyzed?

[Daniel Mulroy]

Thank you for your question.

The reliance on telephone voting comes from a 1998 report from Elections Canada that KPMG authored, saying that was the most secure and accessible means of voting. That's the reliance.

A colleague brought up the efficacy of voting online, and there are obvious concerns with security when we look to wholescale online voting. Telephone voting for disabled Canadians is not quite the same wholescale change to the current format.

In terms of the current means for voting for Mr. Steacy, for example, through the special voting procedures, he is able to use a Braille template or have a third party cast his vote for him. Mr. Steacy has relied on a glucose meter and has lost sensation in the tips of his fingers. Unfortunately, he's not able to use Braille. Obviously, there are accessibility issues in relying on Braille. If he were able to use Braille, he could not independently confirm that his vote was cast or not spoiled, for example. Relying on a third party, he wholly loses the ability to confirm the accuracy of his ballot.

While there are certainly things to explore in telephone voting—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but there are only 30 seconds left.

For one thing, I'd really like to receive the KPMG report you drew on.

I'd also like to know, in terms of the Chief Electoral Officer's impartiality and now that we've heard plenty of recommendations, if you also believe that he should be the one to choose the change.

[Daniel Mulroy]

That's a difficult question to answer. I would say that the mandate was clearly handed to the Chief Electoral Officer some time ago, and there's been quite a failure on the part of Elections Canada to fulfill that mandate. I think I would leave my answer there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Barron, the floor is yours for six minutes.