Evidence of meeting #23 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gatineau.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

France Bélisle  Mayor, City of Gatineau
Catherine McKenney  Councillor, City of Ottawa
Claude Royer  Spokesperson, Alexandra Bridge Coalition
David McRobie  Architect, As an Individual
Christine Leadman  Executive Director, Bank Street Business Improvement Area
Robert Plamondon  Supporters of the Loop

11:40 a.m.

Mayor, City of Gatineau

France Bélisle

Thank you for the question, Ms. Gaudreau.

I'm very happy that you're a resident of Gatineau.

To answer your question, I'll give you a very concrete example. In my opinion, it should clearly illustrate the committee's concern or help it continue its consideration.

Of course, the occupation in Gatineau was not as imposing as the one in Ottawa. However, it was clear to us that we could not take action, because that would necessarily have had an impact on the environment in Ottawa, and vice versa. That is what you must really consider, taking into account the entire national capital, which includes Gatineau.

During the occupation, I said that, when Ottawa sneezed, Gatineau caught a cold. The opposite is also true. Your vision must therefore be broad, in terms of both the physical areas in question and the communications dimension. It must necessarily take into account both sides of the river. In an emergency, we know that quality communication is the key. Making decisions about a physical space, a ring, an environment, is one thing. However, taking a stance on security in communications between police forces is just as key.

We're therefore in favour of a unified command post, to be set up temporarily in the context of an emergency to facilitate communication. We can't be forgotten.

During major events, people converge on places with symbolic value, like Parliament. However, there's a major overflow on our side of the river, whether because francophones are more familiar with Gatineau or for many other reasons, like the availability of land or hotels. There are obviously people who come to our side. We see it during unpleasant events, like the occupation, and during pleasant events, like the Ottawa marathon. There are pros and cons in all types of events, but we're married, so to speak. We're separated by a river and we're married. That needs to be recognized when making decisions for the region.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Also, Madam Mayor, I took part in the Ottawa marathon myself, but I didn't cross the bridge to Gatineau because I only did the 10K run. My partner crossed it because he did the marathon.

Indeed, there is a palpable union between the two cities. I want to reassure you. The previous witnesses confirmed that the command post, which brought together six police forces, as you are well aware, was set up during the first week, so it wasn't set up in advance or on the first day. Obviously, if a clear protocol and a command post are established in a timely manner, with all our vigilance and expertise, I think we can be reassured by that.

Finally, I also understand that you are in favour of redevelopment. That was my understanding from the discussion of the planned tramway, in particular. I thank you for that, Madam Mayor.

Ms. McKenney, I was moved to learn that so much time and energy was put into this specific event, even though it was done to the detriment of ongoing activities.

Do you think this type of demonstration could spread outside the current perimeter, even though people often want to protest near the Parliamentary Precinct?

Do you think a protocol and a command post could prevent that?

11:40 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

I do believe that an integrated response is what was required during the January-February occupation. Obviously to have an integrated, comprehensive command post for security, for communications, would have meant that information flowed more freely. I did not see evidence that this was happening for two to three weeks.

I don't believe that expanding the precinct would necessarily push out the possibility of larger demonstrations. I'll be honest with you. I don't know that many people have any idea where the precinct starts and finishes. Even I was surprised by some of it, I'll be honest with you, when I started to look. I sit on the Sparks Street Business Improvement Area board of directors, and I also sit on the Sparks Street Mall Authority, which we share with the city, the NCC and the federal government, and the jurisdictional confusion just around Sparks Street is a challenge. I think very few people really understand the differences.

I just say I don't think it would lead to an expansion to Gatineau, to Wellington and south, by having the parliamentary precinct expanded. People just show up and normally they just go up to Parliament. We welcome that. We welcome protests. We welcome events.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Excellent. I want to thank you—

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Madam Chair, I want to thank you for the additional time that you've given me. I know it could have repercussions on the second round of questions, but I appreciate it.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

I love that.

Thank you for your understanding.

Mr. Gord Johns, you have six minutes.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's great to be here.

First, I want to thank both of you for enduring such a difficult task. As a former municipal councillor, I can't imagine taking on such the difficult challenge that you did. I want to commend you both on your work there.

Maybe, Councillor McKenney, you can talk about the experience of residents in the downtown core during the occupation. You cited a little bit about the fireworks, the harassment, the bullying. We got this message back home in British Columbia, where I live, that it was all peaceful, all happy. Can you talk a little bit about the impact on the mental health and the impact on residents in your ward?

11:45 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Through you, Chair, thank you for that question.

It was the compounded result of the hundreds of daily threats of aggression that people felt in the downtown. If you went out and did your groceries and you happened to have a mask on, what happened was.... I'll be clear here. I've never suggested that it was the trucker from Saskatchewan or Canmore, or anywhere, who came and parked for two days and then left the next day. It was what was left behind, and it was the space that opened up for others to come into our downtown residential neighbourhoods because it was lawless. We had no protection, and there was an openness to the racism that we were seeing, the anti-Semitism and the homophobia.

What happened was that—especially on the weekends, I might say—hundreds and hundreds of people who were sympathetic poured in, but wouldn't allow people into grocery stores or would go into grocery stores and harass people. We had seniors who were terrified of leaving their apartments. People with rainbow flags had their windows broken, defecation on their front lawns. It was a constant.

There was probably no one act you could point at that resulted in severe harm, but it was the result of many, many aggressions over three and a half weeks, including horns that were being blown by dozens and dozens of trucks, not allowing people to sleep at night or to work during the day or to have any peace.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Can you speak about the impact on small businesses, the workers and the people in the community? There were closures of businesses and there was harassment, as we heard, from occupiers.

Can you give a bit of insight about the severe impact that had, especially on businesses that had already endured repeated closures throughout COVID?

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Yes. Thank you for that question. You will hear from one of our BIA directors, I believe later today.

All of Bank Street ended up having to close its businesses. It was completely shut down. Bus shelters were taken over and made into makeshift coffee-serving spaces. There were fires being lit in barrels on Bank Street, which is our main street for business. The Rideau Centre closed down for the entire time.

In the end, it was estimated that we had $264 million in lost wages and another $72 million lost in business revenues. This was, again, as you pointed out, on the heels of COVID and shutdowns through COVID. The impact on our businesses and workers was significant and severe.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Thank you for that. I really appreciate getting the scope of things and what it was like on the ground.

You talked about your council supporting the invoking of the Emergencies Act. Can you speak about the consultations and conversations with local indigenous communities around the invocation of the Emergencies Act?

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Thank you for that question.

I'm not able to do that. It was the mayor who invoked the Emergencies Act, and he has the full authority to do so. That was not an issue that was brought in front of council and discussed or debated on.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Ultimately, it was supported by the City of Ottawa and the Province of Ontario with a Conservative premier. My home province of British Columbia supported it, and so did the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs and the B.C. Assembly of First Nations. The former police chief for Ottawa Senator Vernon White and the former Conservative justice minister Peter MacKay supported this.

Was your council unanimous in support for invoking the Emergencies Act?

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

For the federal invocation...?

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Yes, that's correct—in asking for support.

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Thank you.

I can't speak to that. Again, it was never brought to council, so I can't tell you that 23 members of council supported invoking the Emergencies Act.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Can you talk about the importance of closing Wellington Street in terms of the long-term effects on transportation and tourism? I know you've been a huge advocate for cycling, and you have quite the cycling network that has a pretty big gap on Wellington Street. Can you talk about the opportunities there as well?

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Absolutely.

There has always been great opportunity, well before what happened in January and February. Again, it benefits the city and visitors to Parliament. It allows us to create a public space where people can wander. They don't have to look both ways for traffic. If there is a tram, it allows for that interprovincial link between us and the city of Gatineau, which I believe has to become a stronger link.

You are correct. It is a missing link in our cycling infrastructure. It's part of our transportation master plan. It was always planned as a link, but having it open to pedestrians, visitors and cyclists of all ages and all abilities really will enhance the downtown for everyone.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC

Can you add a little more about how you see that closing Wellington Street will enhance security for Parliament Hill and for the city residents of Ottawa?

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Yes, I don't believe that the closure of Wellington without the transfer of responsibility for security will necessarily enhance security, unless we're talking about security...cycling or walking and getting about. However, as I mentioned earlier, any time you have more people gathered in any space, it's inherently safer for all sorts of reasons. It's safer in the evening for people out walking their dogs, for women getting back from work. It's safer from the risk of vehicular collisions, etc. Any time we enhance any street in our city.... It's been shown everywhere. If you put in a bike lane, everybody's safer—drivers, pedestrians, cyclists.

As far as Wellington Street goes, I think just having it animated is inherently safer. We would need to fully animate it. We would need to make it a really special place.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Excellent. Thank you so much for that exchange.

Now we will close off with five more minutes to Mr. Vis, followed by five minutes to Mr. Fergus. Then we will be switching to our next panel.

Mr. Vis.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today. You've given me a lot to think about.

To put it into context, I represent Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon in British Columbia. Four of the 12 photos in this year's Canadian Armed Forces calendar were the Canadian Armed Forces doing disaster recovery work in my riding, especially in the canyon where the village of Lytton was destroyed in a fire almost a year ago.

Councillor McKenney, what's more important to you, transferring downtown Ottawa to federal jurisdiction or closing Wellington Street to vehicles and the possibility of inclusion of the light-rail transit from Gatineau? These are both important priorities. What would be your top priority?

11:55 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

Thank you for that question. I'm not sure I can tell you that one is more important than the other. They both go hand in hand. I think they both are exceptionally important for different reasons and similar reasons.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

I ask that question, because we very well could come to a conclusion at this study where Wellington Street is shut for security reasons, but federal jurisdiction is not transferred. That's something we as parliamentarians will be dealing with.

I remember in the news the letter you wrote on February 3, which was quite bold at the time, when you asked, as the elected representative for the Somerset ward, that the federal government and the RCMP assume “full operational control of Parliament Hill and the Parliamentary Precinct” so Ottawa's police service can be deployed into local neighbourhoods to restore peace and enforce laws.

Was your criticism also directed at the Parliamentary Protective Service and the work that they were conducting on Parliament Hill during the early days of the convoy protests?

11:55 a.m.

Councillor, City of Ottawa

Catherine McKenney

No, that was not the intent of my ask. It was critical of Ottawa police at the time. I was critical of Ottawa police, mostly because I did not feel that their priority was residential neighbourhoods. I'm the city councillor, so my concern through all of this was the residents I represent.

Of course, like the rest of the country, we watched what happened and had concerns about what was happening on Wellington and at Parliament.

No, I was not being critical at that time of parliamentary precinct services. I was looking for an integrated response and for the federal government to take over policing.