Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, the security concern for me would be permitting any vehicle to come smack down the middle of our precinct. I would hope that the decision is not to somehow reopen Wellington Street in front of the triad and between blocks 2 and 1.

With respect to what would change, the POJ is still the POJ. The relationship that the service has with the Ottawa Police Service is stronger compared to three years ago, when I first arrived. It's extremely strong. They respond to our calls for service. The service has been built to hold the first 90 minutes of any sort of crisis. If I've picked up the phone, I've never received a no when I've asked for assistance from the RCMP or the Ottawa Police Service, or even the OPP during the occupation, with respect to one of their public order teams that was under our command.

We're looking to formalize those relationships with a series of MOUs. My concern in wanting to do that is that we can't just build these on pure relationships between the organizations, because those relationships can change. That's one gap that I'm moving to close.

Outside of having our officers have authority specifically on Wellington, hopefully on Sparks and part of Elgin, and a little bit more around the Senate of Canada building, nothing else is going to change.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Another issue that's arisen through some testimony is the fact that sometimes indigenous communities want to come here to do sacred work. Sometimes they want to come here to protest an issue. There was a strong sense that how they were reacted to is very different from how other groups were reacted to.

I'm wondering whether there are any discussions internally—we don't need to know the details, but whether they are happening— around how to approach specific groups who may have a different way of protesting that needs to be acknowledged, and recognizing that there may be some racism that we need to face in this place?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, one of the things I'm most proud of within the service is that, through our advanced planning and management unit and the outreach that we've built through appropriate training, we get out front on these specialized groups to make sure they have the ability to come to Parliament Hill.

The service expects to have an open and free environment for Parliament Hill. As much as our role is to ensure the security of those at work and who come here, it's also to ensure that democracy unfolds. The service is not in place to put up any barriers for any protest. We have the use of the Hill committee, which all of the parliamentary partners sit on. Applications are reviewed and demonstrations will continue to happen on Parliament Hill. Even with an expanded precinct, they will continue to happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We don't have enough time to go through the whole second round, but we are going to start with Mr. McCauley.

Mr. McCauley, you'll have five minutes, and you have about 30 seconds on standby from Mr. Vis earlier. I will provide a bit of leniency, as I have to the other members. I figured Mr. Vis would want you to have them; otherwise he would have said.

We'll go to you for up to five minutes, through the chair.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll get around to sharing time with you, Mr. Gerretsen. Don't worry.

Gentlemen, welcome. I appreciate your time today.

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Brookson, was PPS aware of the city's plan to allow the protesters to set up on Wellington? My understanding is that the protesters were in contact with the city in advance, and the city said, “Well, set up here, here and here.”

Was PPS part of that conversation?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I was made aware of the plans that were put in place with respect to traffic and set-up.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Was that well in advance?

[Larry Brookson]

Yes, but the week before was when it was confirmed to me.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The obvious question is, I assume you said no, or I assume you said, “What are you guys thinking?”

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I raised concerns about having vehicles able to come up in front of the triad, but again, Wellington is not part of my authority. All I could do was have the discussions and raise those concerns with the partners, and ultimately the decision was taken to continue down that path and permit the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Would you be able to share the Ottawa police's response to your concerns?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, no.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Brookson, when do you think it went out of control, from a protest to an out-of-control, sit-down, locked-in, long-term protest?

[Mark Gerretsen, Kingston and the Islands, Lib.]

“Occupation” is the word you're looking for.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I don't interrupt you, Mr. Gerretsen. Please show the same respect.

[Mark Gerretsen]

I was being helpful.

[An hon. member]

You're never helpful.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You're being childish. Show some respect, Mr. Gerretsen.

To you, Mr. Brookson.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Direct comments through the chair.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's through the chair, thanks.

[Larry Brookson]

It was the sheer numbers that were on track to be en route and travelling, understanding that at any point in time in that travel to the city of Ottawa, it could disband, stop or return. As the numbers started to become a reality on the Friday, it was clear this was going to go beyond the weekend.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You mentioned Wellington, which is the main artery, being out of your control. In your mind and that of the PPS, what would be needed? Is it just shutting down Wellington? Is it shutting down other streets? Where along Wellington would it stop?

We have the Confed, the “Mighty Confed”, as I call it. The Supreme Court is just down there, and other offices are further down the road. What areas would be needed, in PPS's perfect world, for the control that you commented on?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, obviously it would be Wellington Street and Sparks. We would be looking at down to Kent and then on the west side of the war memorial. There still needs to be an analysis and assessment of the Senate of Canada building.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, have you had these talks with the Ottawa police? Do they concur, or is their opinion that it should be left open?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I don't enter into those levels of discussion with the Ottawa Police Service. Ultimately, it's not a police decision or—