Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2023

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Niki and I worked many times on issues that affect both our areas and neighbouring ridings. It's important that we do that and advocate for our constituents.

I'll just say this. Why this change? If you look at the map, Pinaymootang, which is Fairford first nation, is still staying in the Churchill—Keewatinook Aski riding in the current proposal. Then, Little Saskatchewan is now returning back to Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman. I've represented them in the past, and they are a great community. Then you have, right next door.... These three first nations are attached. Then you have the split first nation, Lake St. Martin First Nation, which Niki and I will both be servicing if we stick with the current proposal. We should just keep the boundary.

I go back to the principles that were laid out by the Manitoba boundary commission. One is to respect historical patterns and the continuity of previous riding boundaries. They also want to respect communities of interest or identity, for example, communities based around language, shared culture and history. Those are the principles that they worked on, yet, for whatever reason, without the consultation nation to nation, they are now.... I fear, as Niki does, the disenfranchisement and the potential lack of participation in the next federal election going forward. We can't just keep bouncing them back and forth.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that. I really appreciate the importance of the nations' knowing which riding, not necessarily which politician, they belong with.

One of the things I've picked up in this conversation is the interaction between the different nations that are potentially going to be split apart.

Maybe I'll start with you first, Ms. Ashton, to talk about the impact if those folks were.... I'll leave that with you. Thank you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Absolutely. I know, Ms. Blaney, you know how life is for indigenous communities. James has just talked about how physically close these communities are geographically, so as one can imagine, families are split up between these communities. The husband will be from one community and the wife will be from the other, so they are constantly back and forth.

Also, very importantly, people attend very similar celebrations. In fact, Lake St. Martin had its first powwow in recent history this past summer, which brought that entire region together. Communities are connected in terms of culture and tradition, and then day-to-day living.

Pinaymootang, which is in Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, is the central hub for shopping, for medical services and for education, so this idea—and if you looked at the map, this makes no sense—of literally carving them out because they are separate communities is just not on. These are deeply connected communities. In fact, to get to Little Saskatchewan, you have to drive through Pinaymootang. You would drive through Churchill—Keewatinook Aski to get out of it and then, as James pointed out, in the case of Lake St. Martin, part of the community would literally be in his riding and the other part....

We're not talking about two sides of a big boulevard in a big city, where people know they are part of different constituencies. That is not something we have here in our communities, and we shouldn't have it. Our community in Lake St. Martin is smaller but, like I said, it is a community that has worked hard to bring about unity as part of its relocation plan, and this destabilizes that.

Again, we don't want fewer people exercising their vote and engaging in Canadian democracy. Acting on this objection and reinstating the communities would be a critical piece to voter engagement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that.

We're going to come to the top of the hour by giving a couple of minutes to Mr. Maguire, followed by Ms. Romanado.

Go ahead, Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Quickly, I was going back, Mr. Blaikie, and looking at the first question I asked. I asked, over the last 10 years, what the population increase was in Elmwood—Transcona. You weren't sure what it was, but in your letter, you said that the population has drastically increased in those areas.

I wondered if that's a contradiction you can overcome for me.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I don't think it's a contradiction. All you have to do is look around Elmwood—Transcona. There has been a ton more housing built in the last 10 years. There are whole tracts of land that were fields 10 years ago and have subsequently been filled in with developments. It's no secret that the population is growing.

I don't think it's a contradiction to say I know that the population has grown considerably, but I don't have the exact figures with me today. I would say further—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's good.

Are you aware that there were submissions that all of Springfield go into Elmwood—Transcona?

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I am aware, but I respectfully disagree with the submissions.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I don't like that idea either.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

One of the things to keep in mind is what I'm proposing. If you think about moving the northern boundary of Elmwood—Transcona up to, say, Edison Avenue or Springfield Road, or even Chief Peguis Trail or anywhere along there...however many are required in order to make up for the population that the commission is currently—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

For a balanced split.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

—relying on the arm of Springfield for, those folks are just a few blocks over from other folks who already live in East Kildonan. There's a clear affinity of interest versus folks for whom highway driving is a regular part of their life—at least, proportionately more—because they drive into the city a fair bit for work, shopping and other things. There are folks whose kids are under a rural school division as opposed to a Winnipeg school division. There are folks who pay taxes in a completely different municipality.

There are some.... If you think of people living on Edison Avenue versus people living in Dugald, one is clearly already a lot more—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks.

I'm going to have to ask Mr. Bezan if he wants to expand on the words he didn't get a chance to say earlier.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Certainly. To reiterate, if I have a couple of seconds, I think most of the questions we have already answered, making sure that we respect what the commission's priorities were, but this was a surprise when the report came out.

It's different from what most of the municipality had asked for. When there was no consultation with first nations in that area.... I think we want to make sure this is reflected in the final report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

You have a couple of minutes, Ms. Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you so much.

Building on what you said, Mr. Bezan, this isn't the first report we have looked at that seems a bit like a hoodwink. The initial proposal was one thing. Consultations were held, and then when the final report came out, it was nowhere near what was initially put forward.

I wanted to check something with you, Ms. Ashton. You mentioned that the two reserves that are affected by this change were not consulted. I know that in previous submissions of objections to this committee, members of Parliament were able to obtain letters of support, whether they be from the Manitoba assembly of first nations or the two reserves that are affected.

Would that be something you could obtain for us to include in the package, so that we could also have that support to submit? Could you let us know?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'll let Niki Ashton answer the question on whether the two affected first nations were able to get letters to us. I know she has reached out to them.

I included in the packs we'll circulate to you the letter from the Municipality of Grahamdale, which accepts the new boundary I've drafted and encapsulates....

I think the problem was in trying to get around the village of Gypsumville. There are all these new lands that Little Saskatchewan and Lake St. Martin acquired within the municipality boundaries, which are already part of the reserve land as treaty land entitlement or compensation for all the flood damage that has happened along Lake St. Martin over the last 15 years, or are about to be converted over to reserve land. I think the boundaries commission just said, “Okay, we'll put them all in, one way or the other,” but they split Lake St. Martin, which made no sense at all.

With the boundaries I'm providing to you.... If you look at the property map, it clearly delineates and shows that we've been able to get all the property the first nations have in the RM of Grahamdale within the new boundary we're proposing.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I will quickly add that we have been in touch with the leadership of both first nations. Certainly, we've offered them the opportunity to write a letter of support.

However, I don't think the onus, frankly, should be on them. These are communities dealing with crises on a daily basis. As I said, both communities have been deeply impacted by floods and recently relocated in the last few years. They are literally—our offices deal with them—dealing with crises on a daily basis. Now we're asking them to do the work of saying they were never consulted by the boundaries commission.

I guess what I'm saying is, I hope we receive the letters. We'll see—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I appreciate that answer. I'm sorry, but I have to cut it off, because we're already over time. I think the technical issues are good reminders that some of those steps need to be taken sooner.

On behalf of PROC members, I want to thank Ms. Ashton, Mr. Bezan and Mr. Blaikie. I will remind all members that anything you provide to this committee will be submitted to the House, then will go to the commission.

With that, I wish you a good day.

Quickly, for PROC committee members: Stay tuned. The subcommittee has conversed about next week's agenda, so we'll get it over to you. You'll see two invitations we received for people to come visit PROC. They are both informal. One will be during committee time. One will be just after committee time. I hope we can make sure someone will be there for those informal conversations.

Yesterday, the Quebec report was distributed to all members, so the objection period will end on March 3. We'll then work on our next steps forward.

[A voice]

Alberta [Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Alberta was distributed today. It gets even more exciting. There are just a couple more to come.

Keep well and safe, and I wish you the best. We'll see you next week.