Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2023

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I think I've used up all my time, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Very good. Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Mr. Julian, it's six minutes to you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Tayyeb, for being in front of us.

I'm going to ask the same question I asked Ms. Thomas.

I'm sure you have read the reports by Robert Fife and Steven Chase in The Globe and Mail and by Sam Cooper on Global News. You've seen them. Will you acknowledge that they are providing factual information?

[Adam Fisher, Director General, Intelligence Assessments, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

I can maybe try to answer that. Thank you for the question.

Today, we're not prepared to validate any of the reporting that's been in the media or the alleged leaks.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. Let's go further, then. The allegations are criminal in nature if there are violations that took place under the Canada Elections Act. These are serious allegations.

My two questions, then, are stemming from that. First, are you aware of the identities of the nine Liberal and two Conservative MPs that seem to be involved. Second, what do you do when there are allegations of criminal violations? Where do you go? What do you do in terms of referring that information?

[Adam Fisher]

The second part of that question is easier for me to answer. Certainly, during an election, and even prior to and after an election, the intelligence that's being gathered by the service and other agencies is shared with law enforcement, the RCMP and the commissioner of Canada elections. There is a process by which they have eyes on the intelligence. They're able to assess it. They're able to come back to us and potentially ask for more information and to pursue something in the law enforcement lane, but that's certainly up to them. As the NSIA pointed out in her remarks previously, there are some real challenges in that respect in transitioning intelligence into evidence in the law enforcement arena.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Is it automatic that any allegations of a criminal violation of the Canada Elections Act, such as we saw in the in-and-out scandal during the Harper government with Dean Del Mastro, a former Conservative MP, are either investigated by the panel or referred automatically to law enforcement or the commissioner of elections?

[Adam Fisher]

I don't think I would use the term “automatic”. Speaking for the service, when we receive information that points to foreign interference, we will investigate it. That is a certainty.

As I said, our law enforcement partners would be exposed to the fruits of such an intelligence investigation at a high level, and there would be opportunity there, potentially, to pursue a criminal investigation. There are different thresholds in the law enforcement world and the criminal world, so to say that anything would be automatic would be incorrect.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You would investigate it further to see if the financial transactions violate the Canada Elections Act.

[Adam Fisher]

We would not be investigating it through the lens of the Criminal Code or crimes. We would be looking for foreign interference, which is defined in our act as deceptive activity on the part of a foreign state that is detrimental to Canadian interests. That's our threshold. It's a lower threshold than there is in law enforcement. We would certainly investigate any credible information that pointed to foreign interference.

I can't speak to what would be required in a law enforcement space in terms of pursuing a criminal investigation.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is concerning to me in the sense that obviously financial impropriety that violates the Canada Elections Act may not be something that comes to light until after a particular candidate has filed.

I've pushed the question enough. I haven't had a satisfactory answer, but I'll move on.

I did ask you if the panel was aware of the identities of the nine Liberal and two Conservative MPs who are referenced as being viewed favourably by Beijing in the reports. I'm not asking for their names, of course. I'm just asking whether you are aware of them.

[Adam Fisher]

Again, I won't be commenting on any reporting or alleged media leaks.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I will then go on to my next question. This will be for Madam Tayyeb.

You referenced the threshold for information and the panel determining that threshold on a national basis, but we know that disinformation can have an impact at the riding level. Does the panel evaluate the impacts on a riding-to-riding basis as well? Something that might not hit the national threshold might have an impact at the riding level.

[Alia Tayyeb]

I can speak from a SITE task force perspective. We would have been monitoring, reporting and briefing on any threats. We don't necessarily make a distinction between the riding level and the federal level.

In terms of the panel's considerations, I would have to defer to the panel members, whom I believe are appearing at a later date.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Cooper, go ahead.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

This question is for whoever can answer it. Having regard for the caretaker convention or otherwise, did the task force go back and seek input from the Prime Minister or any minister of the government during the 2021 election writ period?

[Alia Tayyeb]

The SITE task force, as I indicated in my opening remarks, was responsible for providing briefings. I outlined the three sets of briefings that we were responsible for doing: one for the panel, one for the political party representatives and the third for the election security coordinating committee. Otherwise we did not separately brief the Prime Minister or any ministers.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Berthold, go ahead.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Ms. Tayyeb. By the way, your French was excellent during your opening remarks. I encourage you to keep it up. That would make us very happy.

I'm not going to discuss what's been reported by journalists. I want to talk documents.

Has any of you seen documents showing how such a highly organized and well-oiled machine was able to operate in Canada with two main objectives: the re-election of a minority Liberal government in 2021 and the defeat of specific Conservative candidates targeted by the Chinese Communist regime?

[Adam Fisher]

I can't speak to specific intelligence I've seen on specific cases.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

That's the problem, Madam Chair. Since the beginning, every time we've asked specific questions in an attempt to shed a little light on the situation, we're told that the information is classified.

If I understand correctly, you just said you brief political party representatives who have the necessary security clearance. Do I have that right?

[Alia Tayyeb]

Yes, exactly.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

The individuals with that security clearance aren't allowed to share any of the information from the briefings. Is that correct?

[Alia Tayyeb]

That's correct.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

When you tell a political party representative something, that person can't share it with the party. The only place you can turn is the panel made up of senior public servants. You brief the panel, which decides whether or not to do something. Either way, all of the intelligence you gather cannot be disclosed to the public.