Evidence of meeting #55 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jody Thomas  National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office
Shawn Tupper  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Cindy Termorshuizen  Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Alia Tayyeb  Deputy Chief of Signals Intelligence, Communications Security Establishment
Tara Denham  Director General, Office of Human Rights, Freedoms and Inclusion, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Adam Fisher  Director General, Intelligence Assessments, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good afternoon. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 55 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(a) and the motion agreed to on February 21, 2023, concerning foreign election interference.

Before we start, I will remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair. The clerk and I will maintain consolidated speaking lists of members wishing to speak.

For the first hour, we have with us today, from 3 p.m. to 4 p.m., from the Privy Council Office, Jody Thomas, national security and intelligence adviser. From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Cindy Termorshuizen, associate deputy minister of foreign affairs. From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Shawn Tupper, deputy minister.

I see Mr. Cooper would like the floor really quickly.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a very brief housekeeping matter.

I would note that House resources are available until 11 this evening. Given that we have two hours with witnesses, it is my intent to move our Conservative motion that was put on notice, which, among other things, calls for Katie Telford to testify before this committee.

It is testimony that is essential to get to the heart of what is at issue, which is this: What did the Prime Minister know, when did he know it, and what did he do or fail to do about Beijing's election interference?

On that basis, Madam Chair, respectfully, I wish to indicate that you do not have the implied consent of the official opposition to adjourn at 5 p.m.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

You are not moving your motion at this time.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I will at 5 p.m.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

You plan to move it at 5 p.m.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Yes, or when we're done with the second panel.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

I believe we will now resume with our witnesses, who have so kindly joined us today.

Ms. Thomas, you will be providing opening remarks. We welcome them now.

March 1st, 2023 / 3:05 p.m.

Jody Thomas National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear today with my colleagues.

My colleagues and I support the committee's efforts to examine foreign interference in Canada.

It is very important to reassure Canadians that the last two—

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Ms. Thomas, I would ask you to please hold on for one second. The translation is not working.

I'm going to check whether the interpreter can hear me.

Is it working now?

I see a thumbs-up.

We will start from the top again, if that is okay.

3:05 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear today with my colleagues.

My colleagues and I support the committee's efforts to examine foreign interference in Canada.

It is very important to reassure Canadians that the last two federal elections were fair and legitimate. Canadians have questions about foreign interference attempts during the last elections, and we will endeavour to answer those questions in the most transparent way possible within the limits of the law. We, as national security officials, have a duty to protect classified information. Unauthorized sharing of classified information is in fact prohibited by the Security of Information Act.

That is not to say that we cannot or should not talk about foreign interference. It is not a new phenomenon, nor is it unique to Canada. Like others, we believe this threat is on the rise and increasingly complex. The greatest foreign interference threat to Canada comes from the People’s Republic of China, though other states, like Russia and Iran, are also attempting to covertly or coercively interfere in our affairs.

As highlighted in many public reports, including from CSIS and the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, foreign interference takes many forms, such as undue pressure on politicians, staff and public servants to obtain information or sway decisions; intimidation of diasporas and other communities, including, for example, by denying visas to visit family; mis- or disinformation to weaken Canada’s societal cohesion—we have seen this play out in the context of Canada’s support to Ukraine; encroachments into our territory or networks for intelligence collection; and theft of our science, data and research.

Measuring the short- and long-term impacts of foreign interference is a challenge. We know it costs Canada tens of billions of dollars annually in lost profitability; erodes Canadian technological advantages, particularly in emerging technologies; undermines national unity and sows discontent; threatens the safety of targeted individuals and their entourage or families; and challenges democracy.

Over the past few years, we have taken a number of steps to more effectively detect, deter and counter foreign interference in all its forms, including but not only during election periods. One effective way to do so is to talk about the threat and how we mitigate it without jeopardizing the sources and techniques used to gather intelligence and keep Canadians safe.

As I said, one of our responsibilities as senior officials of the security and intelligence community is to be as transparent as possible without further challenging national security or further damaging trust in our democratic institutions. As such, we have been engaging with communities, academia, industry and politicians to raise awareness and provide tools to help address this broad, complex threat.

Such tools include the security and intelligence threats to elections task force and the critical election incident public protocol. These mechanisms helped ensure that the 2019 and 2021 federal elections were indeed fair and legitimate, despite foreign interference attempts.

As described by Minister Blair in a December 2020 letter to members of Parliament, our broader counter-foreign interference tool kit also includes countering mis- and disinformation, including using active cyber tools and leading the G7 rapid response mechanism; enhancing research security, including with guidance to research granting councils; protecting our networks from malicious actors, including through the creation of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security; and investigating, disrupting and/or prosecuting foreign interference activity.

We cannot paint an overly optimistic picture. Things change. Tools and methods change. Our adversaries adapt quickly and find innovative ways to interfere in our affairs, so we must continue to learn, including from one election to the next, to refine our collective defences and adapt to this evolving threat.

Part of this is better informing Canadians of the threats we face, and I will stress again that this must be done responsibly, without putting at risk the physical safety of our human resources—our human sources and employees—by publicly divulging classified material. Given the very nature of intelligence, individual reports, when taken out of context, may be incomplete and misrepresentative of the full story.

We must also carefully consider that, as recently suggested by Senator Shugart, in some cases publicly disclosing intelligence on foreign states’ specific attempts to interfere may ultimately play into their hands, including by potentially affecting outcomes of electoral processes and creating confusion.

To conclude, while I was not in my current role in 2019 or 2021, I speak for the security and intelligence community when I say that we are clear-eyed in understanding the challenge posed by foreign interference. We are taking concrete steps to strengthen our counter-foreign interference approach, including by making sure that those who engage in such activities face consequences.

Again, as Minister Blair stated in his letter to members of Parliament, while “We cannot always make Government actions public in this sphere...our sustained efforts make a difference in the lives of Canadians.”

Once again, thank you.

My colleagues and I would be glad to answer any questions you have.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

3:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you very much.

We will now go into our question round, starting with six minutes.

We will start with Mr. Cooper, who will be followed by Mr. Fergus.

After that, we will go to Ms. Normandin, followed by Mr. Julian.

Six minutes go to you, Mr. Cooper, through the Chair.

3:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Thomas, and thank you to all the witnesses for making yourselves available this afternoon.

I'll direct my questions to Ms. Thomas.

On February 24, 2023, Sam Cooper of Global News reported that three weeks before the 2019 election, CSIS officials gave an urgent briefing to senior aides in the Prime Minister's Office, warning them that a then Liberal candidate who is now a sitting Liberal MP had received assistance from Beijing's Toronto consulate in his nomination campaign. On what date was the Prime Minister briefed about this?

3:10 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

As I stated, I was not in this job in 2019, so I do not know when the Prime Minister was briefed.

3:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I realize that you were not in that job, but would you undertake to confirm the date that the Prime Minister was briefed about that?

3:10 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I will certainly do that and, as you're aware, the director of CSIS will be here at this—

3:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, so you will undertake to do that.

3:10 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

3:10 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you very much.

What are the names of the senior aides in the Prime Minister's Office who were briefed by CSIS about Beijing's interference to help this then Liberal candidate and now sitting Liberal MP?

3:15 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

Again, I was not at that briefing, so speculating on who was briefed.... CSIS will be here and they will be able to answer that question for you.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Will you undertake, given that you are the national security adviser to the Prime Minister, to provide the committee with the names of senior aides in the Prime Minister's Office, as reported by Global News, who were briefed by CSIS?

3:15 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I will undertake to report the names of who was briefed as informed to me by CSIS.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Robert Fife and Steven Chase, in a February 17, 2023 article in The Globe and Mail, reported that the Prime Minister “received a national-security briefing last fall” in which he was told that Beijing's consulate in Toronto was involved with assisting 11 candidates in the 2019 election. On what date was the Prime Minister briefed about this?

3:15 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I don't have my calendar in front of me. I will give you that date.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

You will undertake to provide that date.

3:15 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office