Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2023

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Who's involved in those conversations?

[Jody Thomas]

There is a range of people. Certainly there are people on his immediate staff, members of the national security community and often the Clerk of the Privy Council.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Could you send us the list of people who were involved in the foreign interference briefings you just referred to?

[Jody Thomas]

I can give you general lists, yes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You said earlier that a number of ministers received the daily foreign interference briefing.

Can you tell us which ministers are involved in those briefings?

[Jody Thomas]

What I said was that the daily foreign intelligence bulletin that was referenced in a previous question is distributed broadly to those who have clearance to read it, and it is provided to some ministers.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Did you have occasion to discuss those briefings with the Prime Minister and other cabinet members in relation to interference by the Chinese Communist regime?

[Jody Thomas]

The daily foreign intelligence briefing is an assessed piece that gives highlights of what's going on in terms of foreign interference on a range of subjects. I don't normally use it as a basis for briefing. Normally, I use.... It's not necessarily me briefing. The briefing material generally comes directly from the national security agency, rather than the assessed piece.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Did other cabinet members sometimes attend your briefings with the Prime Minister?

[Jody Thomas]

There is a range of briefings, but—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I'm talking about the briefings that deal specifically with the subject of today's meeting, Ms. Thomas.

[Jody Thomas]

Generally, unless it is a discussion in cabinet or a cabinet committee, the briefings are with the Prime Minister.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you.

I could ask you the same questions about the information in the Global News story by Sam Cooper on February 24 and the February 17 story by Robert Fife and Steven Chase, and you would say that you were given various information in various reports.

I'm out of time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, it's up to five minutes for you.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you Madam Chair, and thanks to our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Thomas, I'm going to focus on some short-answer questions for you. I hope you can keep your answers short.

We've seen a number of concerning allegations over recent weeks with all the reporting that's been going on, so I want to get a very clear answer to this important question.

Do you agree that if CSIS, through its intelligence gathering, becomes aware of illegal activity, that information should be referred to the relevant authorities for further investigation?

[Jody Thomas]

The simple answer to that question is yes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That's perfect. Thank you.

I want to follow that up with some specific examples in the media reporting. There were reports that CSIS allegedly became aware of instances when the difference between the original political donation and the refund a person gets at tax time was returned to donors.

First, would you agree that constitutes an illegal activity?

[Jody Thomas]

That report was in the media. Of course, the intelligence that backs it up is more complex than is probably evident in the single clip or piece of that report that has been revealed in the media.

If there is a concern about criminal activity, the RCMP receives the intelligence. It is responsible for determining what it will investigate and what it will pursue. As you're very well aware, police independence is a critical element of Canadian law enforcement and our judicial system.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

My understanding is that it would be an illegal activity, if those allegations were true, and that CSIS would then be required to refer the intelligence to the RCMP and the commissioner of elections, or both, either through the SITE task force or otherwise.

Is that not true?

[Jody Thomas]

There are many ways that CSIS could refer information. It works very closely with the RCMP, and there are a number of mechanisms to ensure that the RCMP receives intelligence for its own purposes when CSIS has a complete enough picture to refer it to the RCMP.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That's great. If charges were laid, obviously, that would become public, would it not?

[Jody Thomas]

There's a lot of process before charges are laid, but yes. If charges were laid and if there were an investigation, yes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Tupper, I wonder if you could comment on the next question. Do you know if the RCMP received information from CSIS on this particular allegation around political donations?

Is the RCMP investigating any matters regarding foreign interference from the last election?

[Shawn Tupper]

I can confirm that the RCMP is not investigating any of the allegations arising from the last election.

On the specifics of the first part of your question, I will endeavour to come back, because I don't have specifics on that.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

With regard to another report, in which CSIS allegedly found that business owners fired international Chinese students and assigned them to volunteer in election campaigns on a full-time basis, I want to ask the same question.

Would you agree that this is an illegal activity?

Ms. Thomas, that's for you.