Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the ministers for being here. I'm grateful that you waited for a few extra minutes to sit at the table with us today.

I also want to put it on the record that when we have that kind of intense back-and-forth, it's also very hard for interpreters. They do hard work for us, and I hope that all of us respect the work of those folks when we're having conversations.

My questions are going to be through the chair for Minister Joly.

This is a really serious issue. I am very concerned, and I take this very seriously. I appreciate the fact that you talked about the difference between the Chinese government and the Chinese people. That's something I hope every Canadian hears very clearly—that we cannot mix up the two.

I'm also very curious about the fact that, as I read in The Globe and Mail, which cited a CSIS report from December 2021, a Chinese diplomat, Tong Xiaoling, boasted about interfering with the elections. I'm trying to understand this. I want to understand.

Were you aware of the intelligence reports? Were you aware of those or any similar accusations of Ms. Tong? We know that she did not leave her post until August of 2022, even though the CSIS report of her claims of interference was provided eight months earlier.

I'm trying to figure out if you were aware of this. Were there any actions taken on the part of you and the department to pressure the Chinese government to withdraw her as a diplomat? Could you give us some clarity on that? I think this is part of the problem and why Canadians are questioning so many of our institutions.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Blaney. This is a very important question.

First and foremost, I get many briefings. Many of them have sensitive information, and obviously the right committee for me to be able to address these issues is NSICOP. Of course, if they ask me to go, I will definitely be going.

That being said, everything that is linked to foreign actions in Canada is under the purview of my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety. I don't have a specific answer for this case.

That being said, if I were presented with clear evidence about any form of wrongdoing that goes against the Vienna convention—and when I say that, Rachel, I mean anything that would be wrongdoing in accordance with our Canadian law—I would send them packing.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that, Minister. I hear very clearly that you cannot answer that.

What I'm trying to understand is how this person, in this particular position, was allowed to stay for eight months despite the fact that concerns were raised.

I guess the other component of this question, and you referred to it earlier in your conversation, was that the department did refuse to grant a visa to a person who was coming from China in a new diplomatic position at their embassy in the fall of 2022.

I know you can't go into nuances, but could you at least provide the public with some sort of understanding of how it is that one individual was allowed to stay in this country for eight months after explicitly boasting about interfering in our election process, and later on you were able to refuse a visa? I'm trying to get some clarity. Was there a specific change within the process? I want to understand the process so that Canadians have some sort of transparency.

If you can't speak to this in specifics, has something changed? Is there a new rule that you're implementing that is preventing this? Is it because they were already in the country? Do we have weaknesses in removing people who should be removed from our country? Is it easier when they are at the door to prevent that from happening?

If you could provide some sort of process answers, I think that would help clarify to Canadians their serious and important concerns.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I agree. They are serious concerns.

There are a couple of things on that.

First and foremost, as I said, I can't go into the specific issue but what I can tell you is that, when it comes to our own accreditation process for granting visas to diplomats, I think there has been a higher level of awareness in the last months. I think also that we've been following and making sure that the norms are in place. I have instructed my department to never shy away from denying a visa if it's for a political operative and therefore linked to the Communist Party of China. That's my first point.

My second point is that, when it comes to Chinese diplomats in general, we've summoned the Chinese ambassadors many times. I've instructed my department to do so. I think it is important for us to be able to send strong messages and to make sure that any form of action is stopped through this engagement. Now, should that not be the case, afterwards, as I said, we would never hesitate to expel somebody.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I apologize, but I have 10 seconds left.

It's clear to me, and what I understand you are saying, is that it's easier to prevent people from coming into the country than it is to get them out of the country when they're here.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

If I can just answer that, I believe it's easier to prevent. On the question about afterwards, when it comes to diplomats in our country, I think it's about how you make sure you have the evidence to deal with an expulsion and what the impacts of an expulsion might be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you. I appreciated that, Ms. Blaney.

There's a little bit of a nuance going on with our timer and my timer, so we want to make sure that everyone knows I am timing it all.

We are going to get to have just one round—so one more Conservative and Liberal, and then two and a half and two and a half—and then we will have the ministers go on their way.

Mr. Cooper, you have up to five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, ministers, for being here.

Through you, Madam Chair, to Minister Joly, you've talked tough. You've talked tough with your Beijing counterparts, so you say. You even stared into his eyes—I'm sure he was very intimidated—and now we learned yesterday in The Globe and Mail, very conveniently, that a visa was denied for a diplomat who wanted to work at the Canadian Beijing embassy.

It was one visa. Is that it? Was it just one visa? How many visas have been denied—just one?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I won't comment on your question, particularly at the beginning, because I think it's actually.... The tone—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, I have a right—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to pause time.

I'm pausing time. Our approach here is very important, so I would just say, be mindful.

Mr. Cooper, earlier, one of your colleagues said that we want to make sure about how much time we speak and the response is given. You spoke for 43 seconds. The minister will be given close to the same time. You are at 10 seconds already done.

Minister, go ahead.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Cooper, you would know China because you went to China as a parliamentarian in the past. Therefore, I think you would understand that when we fall into too much partisanship we're falling into China's trap, which is trying to sow division in many democracies.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Minister, through you, Madam Chair, how many visas of Beijing diplomats have been denied? Is it just one? How many?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I can give you under my watch. What I can tell you is that there was a visa that was not granted back this fall.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

So, it's one. Okay. Thank you for answering that: one visa denied under your watch.

Minutes ago—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I just wanted to—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

No, it's my time.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

No, but I wanted—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, my time is limited, and I'm going to ask for you to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Minister, pause.

Minister Joly—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I just want to make sure that we all understand that it's a diplomatic visa. It is a diplomatic visa. Obviously, we have visas for the Chinese community—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

My question was prefaced on how many diplomatic visas: one. You've answered that question. You said moments ago that Beijing's Ambassador Cong has been summoned on many occasions.

It's true that the ambassador has been summoned with respect to the balloon incident and with respect to illegal police stations, but not on election interference. Why?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We've summoned the ambassador on many, many subjects, including foreign interference of all sorts, including within our democracy.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

On election interference...yes or no?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Like I said, yes.

Maybe, Jennie, you can add to that, because the department would know, of course.