Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, I'm not prepared to say we're going to trust you to have the committee return. We saw the tricks that were played on Tuesday when resources of the House were available. Opposition MPs returned to debate a very straightforward motion, and Liberal MPs didn't show up.

We want to hear from the ministers. The only reason we're in this position is the filibuster that has been going on for six hours over two days. I'm not prepared to move on to hear from the ministers until we have the assurance that this is going to be taken up this afternoon, period.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I want a time when this committee will be returning this afternoon, and then we can hear from the ministers, but we will be dealing with this motion in no uncertain terms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Cooper, I'm not sure if you heard the words that came out of my mouth, but I was clear to say that I agree with that. I think we can have ministers appear, and then we can return to this motion. I asked if anybody has any concerns with it, and I did not see a single one. I will finish my point. I do have Ms. O'Connell and Mr. Turnbull next, and I'll return to you.

The reality is that we can do it. In our hands right now are resources until one o'clock. I am willing to push them until 1:30. The ministers are here from 12 to one. I would have them leave right at one o'clock. As long as we keep our question-and-answer rounds tight, we can have them out then, return to this from one o'clock until 1:30 and then find our way forward. As to this afternoon's resources, at the current time, unless there is a cancellation.... Whips can come together to determine what meeting is being cancelled and if we can return.

What I have also said is that if we cannot find the time this afternoon, I am more than willing to ask for resources next week, because the House is not sitting and we're not competing against it. However, right now, as to the clerk and me getting to use resources from the House of Commons, I have provided you an upfront update of where we are. This afternoon it's not in our hands, but if something happens organically, like something is cancelled, we would for sure ask for the resources. The first time it was said here, whether everyone wanted it or not, right away I signalled to the clerk to please ask to see if there are any resources available, and she maintained trying to see what was available. The minute we know, we will share it.

Ms. O'Connell is next.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think you have been more than clear on what resources are available and what is outside of your control. Despite Mr. Cooper's temper tantrum, at the end of the day, it was this committee that asked ministers to appear. They have appeared, so why would we not hear them out? If the Conservatives are actually interested in answers, they should be all for asking their questions and getting that on the record instead of playing these games once again and taking their toys and going home.

I think Canadians want to hear from the ministers again. This is what was asked. We're prepared to do so and to then get back to the debate on the motions at hand. If the Conservatives want to play games once again and want to throw temper tantrums, then we'll continue to do that and the ministers can go on with their day, but this is what the committee asked them to appear to do. They are here, and I think it behooves us to actually get on with the work of this committee instead of more and more things to complain about—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have a point of order. Can we have a unanimous consent motion? I propose a unanimous consent motion that we continue after the ministers and return at 4:30 after question period.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I can take that, but it would not be genuine because right now we don't have resources at 4:30.

What I'm saying is that with the way this place functions, whips on each of our teams are welcome to come together and choose what they want to cancel, and then the committee can meet. Between the clerk and me, I can't commit to coming back at 4:30 until I have resources.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I recommend that we do that and have faith that you're going to figure it out and that the whips will do their job. I'm—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It's fascinating, because you keep questioning whether you can have faith in me and then you're asking me to have faith in the conversation I won't be part of. I'm in public telling you I think it's an important conversation. I think we can find a way forward. The longer this takes and the longer it takes for the ministers to come here, the harder it is for us to get back at one o'clock and push the resources we're already pushing.

Do we have agreement—let me know—to have ministers appear, and then we can go back into this conversation right after to find a way forward? If, by then, the whips have figured out a way to cancel another meeting and meet at 4:30, that's perfect. If not, what I'm committing is that I'll find you a time next week, whenever you want to meet, and we can continue this conversation during the constituency week, because then it will not be the whips who decide that.

The clerk and I can try to push to get some resources, as we have for the other Standing Order 106(4) meetings that have happened. Rather than it being a Standing Order 106(4) meeting—for anybody watching, an emergency meeting—we can actually plan when we're doing it and then work around our schedules. I think that's reasonable.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, just to be crystal clear, if the majority of whips ensure that there are resources available at 4:30 this afternoon, are you going to be here and are Liberal MPs going to show up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It's interesting enough that you would say that, Mr. Cooper. I made that same comment to the clerk, and the clerk said she's not sure how that stuff functions. What she does know is that we don't have resources right now, and what the House has told us is that whips can determine the way forward. Therefore, I am, as a chair does, taking procedural advice from the clerk and doing my job as the chair of this committee.

I am on the record telling you what my intentions are. There are just certain things I can't control. If I could, I would have a lot of wishes, I can tell you, and one of them would be to ensure that Canadians have full confidence in our system.

With that, go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Really quickly, because of this, I think we're wasting the precious time we dedicated to hearing from a panel of ministers. We will come back when we can, when the resources are available, so let's get on with questioning the ministers.

If members are truly serious about getting to the bottom of this and getting answers, why are we wasting the ministers' time? Let's move on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going make a proposal. It is currently 12:08. I can offer that ministers stay for one hour or we ask ministers to leave at one o'clock. Would you like ministers to stay for one hour, or would you like ministers to leave at one o'clock?

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, I just want to put on the record that opposition whips have agreed to coming back at 4:30 and freeing up necessary resources. I want to put that on the record. I want your assurance that you're going to be here at 4:30 along with Liberal MPs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

When my clerk tells me that and I know it, I will go from there.

Can we get this moving—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'd like the ministers here for the full hour, so I certainly hope we'll be back here at 4:30. If we aren't, I guess we'll deal with that then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We will get it dealt with for sure.

Is anybody opposed to having the ministers here for one hour?

We're adjourning this part of the meeting, starting the next meeting and coming back to—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

We're going to suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We'll suspend. We'll get the panel switched over.

Welcome, Ministers. Please come in and join us.

We will continue our meeting. Everybody should be in their seats in two minutes because I will continue the meeting. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I call the meeting back to order. Welcome back to the procedure and House affairs committee.

We're resuming our meeting. I would like to welcome Minister Joly and Minister LeBlanc.

Thank you for coming.

Accompanying the ministers today we have, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Tara Denham, director general of the office of human rights, freedoms and inclusion, and Jennie Chen, executive director of greater China political and coordination. From the Privy Council Office, we have Allen Sutherland, assistant secretary to the Cabinet, machinery of government and democratic institutions.

As reminder, all comments are to go through the chair. The better you keep this meeting going, the more quickly it goes. A lot of it is in your hands.

With that, Ministers, if you can signal to me who would like to go first and if we can, as always, keep our comments tight....

Minister Joly, it's a pleasure to have you back. Thank you for taking the time. The floor is yours.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, members of the committee, I'm very pleased to see you all here today. Thank you for inviting me to discuss this important issue.

The Government of Canada takes allegations of interference and coercive diplomacy by foreign agents, no matter where they are from, very seriously. Keeping Canadians safe and protecting our democratic institutions is a top priority of our government. We have zero tolerance for any type of interference in our democracy.

Canadians should never feel unsafe or threatened. That is especially true when they belong to at-risk communities. Every Canadian should feel they have the ability to participate in our civil society and democracy. They should be able to do so with confidence and without fear of reprisal.

Madam Chair, the work this committee is doing is critical.

Democracy is a choice. It is often a fight, and it takes work every day to defend and promote it.

Canada’s democracy is among the strongest and the most stable in the world. This stability is the basis for the safety, prosperity and growth that our citizens enjoy. It is worth protecting, and it should never be a partisan issue.

Reports of Chinese interference in the 2021 general election are deeply disturbing.

We have been clear with China about the fact that Canada will never tolerate any form of foreign interference in its democracy or domestic affairs, not here, in Canada, nor through international fora. I have made that clear to China repeatedly, including last week when I spoke to my Chinese counterpart.

We will never tolerate an attack on our sovereignty or a violation of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations by Chinese diplomats on Canadian soil.

To be clear, I will repeat this in English: Canada will never tolerate any form of foreign interference in our democracy, nor in our internal affairs. We will never accept any breach of our territorial integrity and sovereignty. We will never accept any breach by Chinese diplomats of the Vienna convention on Canada’s soil.

I have conveyed this to my Chinese counterparts on numerous occasions, including just days ago at the G20. Senior officials in my department have also repeatedly delivered this message in recent weeks and months. We have told them directly and unequivocally that we will not tolerate any form of interference.

We will continue to do what is necessary to defend our national security and national interests.

The question of foreign interference is not one that is unique to Canada. This is something that our partners and allies around the world are grappling with. As foreign ministers, my counterparts and I work together to share best practices in countering foreign threats to democracy.

China’s rise as a global actor is reshaping the strategic outlook of every state in the region, including Canada. I’ve said it before and I will say it again: China is an increasingly disruptive global power.

We have been very clear about our approach to China in our Indo-Pacific strategy. We will challenge China when we ought to. We will co-operate when we must. We will never hold back from sharing our concerns and principles. We will never apologize for defending our national interests.

As we forge ahead with a strong, multi-dimensional approach to China, we will always differentiate between the Chinese government and the Chinese people.

Thanks to Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy, through Global Affairs Canada, we are broadening our understanding of how China thinks, operates and plans, and how it exerts influence in the region and around the world.

Key embassies across our network will have dedicated experts to deepen our understanding of the challenges that China poses, and the opportunities that it pursues. That will be a focus of our diplomatic efforts, and the work has already begun.

We are also doing more to protect Canada's infrastructure and democracy as well as Canadians from foreign interference.

That means modernizing the Investment Canada Act, safeguarding our critical mineral supply chains, and protecting intellectual property and research in Canada. We are enhancing the capacity of our security infrastructure in order to protect Canadians from foreign states' attempts to covertly and coercively exert influence. We are also strengthening Canada's capacity to effectively and efficiently gather, develop and share intelligence, analysis and assessments, so we can better understand foreign interference threats, hostile activities by state actors and economic coercion.

Finally, Madam Chair, we will continue to take this issue very seriously and work at multiple levels to shield our democratic institutions from foreign interference.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to have a discussion with you and to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Minister.

Now, Minister Leblanc, you get four and a half minutes.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Madam Chair, I'll endeavour to finish in less than that.

Thank you for this opportunity, Madam Chair.

You already introduced my colleague Allen Sutherland.

Let me reiterate what my colleague, the foreign affairs minister, said.

Protecting our democracy and democratic institutions against threats of foreign interference is critical. It's critical to our government and to all Canadians. We obviously don't tolerate, in any form, foreign interference or attempts to undermine democratic processes in Canada. That's why the Prime Minister announced, on Monday evening, the appointment of an independent special rapporteur who will have a wide mandate to formulate specific recommendations on the protection of our democracy.

In the coming weeks, he or she will be asked to inform the work of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency, as well as other processes under way to identify gaps in our system and further advice, obviously, on how to close those gaps.

Last week, the committee heard from a range of witnesses who provided clarity on the type of intelligence and the significance of the context in building a complete picture.

I want to reiterate that a robust process is in place when national security agencies become aware of information that could impact national security and public safety.

It is also important for Canadians to know all the measures we are taking to ensure that they and our democracy are always protected.

It starts with speaking frankly with Canadians on the threats facing the country and by continuing to adapt our measures to those evolving threats. This issue is not new and it's not unique to Canada either. Public threats have been reported by the Communications Security Establishment and by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service for over a decade, and they have identified concerns of foreign interference and threats to democratic institutions.

All our allies around the world, including our Five Eyes partners, are concerned about the threats of foreign states working to advance their interests and to undermine ours—threats that are designed to continue to undermine Canada's security, democracy and social fabric.

Equally, Madam Chair, Canada is recognized as having stepped up as a global leader in responding to election interference. We've taken a number of steps since the election in 2015, and we continue to build on these actions because threats to our democracy continue to evolve and so, therefore, must our responses.

We've talked about the critical election incident public protocol, which is a senior committee of public servants, many of whom testified before this committee last week. This protocol established a panel that is designed to provide Canadians with a non-partisan, transparent process whereby these public servants can communicate clearly and impartially with Canadians during an election in the event of an incident or series of incidents that threaten the integrity of a federal election.

Madam Chair, although there has been a significant focus on the panel's training, the protocol provides for many other measures. The cabinet directive on the protocol states very clearly that, as soon as a national security agency becomes aware of interference during a general election, all options must be examined to combat the problem effectively and immediately.

As members know, the independent evaluation of the protocol was recently completed, and a public version was released last week. We are actively considering the recommendations made by Mr. Rosenberg, with a view to continually improving our measures to protect institutions, as I said, from foreign interference. The Prime Minister announced on Monday that we will release a plan for the implementation of the recommendations from Mr. Rosenberg, as well as others, within the next three weeks.

These are but a few examples, Madam Chair, of actions our government has taken and will continue to take to protect Canadian democracy.

Now, obviously, Mélanie and I are very enthusiastic to answer all your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Minister.

We will have six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the ministers and all the officials joining them today.

Ms. Joly, you said earlier that you would never tolerate foreign interference in the country. You are very good at making big statements that come across as quite strong. Can you tell us how many diplomats from China's Communist regime your department or the federal government expelled in 2018?