Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Jennie Chen, Executive Director, Greater China Political and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would just like to add that diplomatic representations were made to Ambassador Cong by senior officials at GAC on February 24.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

With respect to interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections...?

[Jennie Chen]

Based on the.... Yes, that is correct.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

Madam Minister, it's been more than six months since we learned of illegal police stations operated in Canada by Beijing. We just learned in the last 24 hours that there are two operating in Montreal, one in Brossard and one in Montreal within 30 minutes of your riding, yet, six months later, election interference, illegal police stations, tough talk...but not a single diplomat expelled. Why not?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

When it comes to police stations, the RCMP has confirmed that they have been closed. My colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, has also given a lot of information on that aspect before. Of course, we will not tolerate any form of foreign interference, including police stations.

I've been having many conversations with my colleagues around the world on this issue, particularly with Antony Blinken again last week, and we will work within the Five Eyes to identify any form of foreign interference, including—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

One visa denied and not a single diplomat expelled, these are hardly the actions of a government that takes Beijing's interference seriously.

Minister, when you last appeared before this committee on December 13, you said repeatedly, unequivocally, that you had no information about Beijing's interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections. How is it that The Globe and Mail and Global News have information based on their review of CSIS documents about significant interference by Beijing in the 2019 and 2021 elections, but you, as Minister of Foreign Affairs, know nothing. How is that possible?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

When it comes to activities of foreign actors in the country, the foreign affairs minister was not made aware. Since then, I've made sure that changed and that would not be the case, because obviously, as everybody around this table would be aware, it is important—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You've asked to be briefed. You didn't know anything in December, but—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Can I just finish my sentence, please, Michael?

Obviously, in the context, as colleagues around this table would agree, as Minister of Foreign Affairs I need to make sure that I have access to that information in order to conduct our diplomatic relationships in a good way in the Canadian interest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, go ahead.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Let me just offer the ministers my apologies for what they've had to witness today in this committee in terms of the condescending tone. I will apologize on behalf of my colleagues, because I don't think they will.

I'll start off with a question for you, Minister LeBlanc.

Have you read the recent Morris Rosenberg report?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I have, and I've also had an opportunity to discuss with Mr. Rosenberg his recommendations and the nature of the work he did late last fall as well.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

I noticed in the Rosenberg report that there was a specific reference in a footnote, on page 26, that three of the political parties participated in the briefings during the last election and all continued to support a panel composed of senior public servants. What I found interesting about it was that it was noted that the Bloc Québécois didn't participate in those briefings.

Do you find that surprising?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Turnbull, I think I saw the leader of the Bloc explaining at some point why they chose not to participate.

We think it's important that all political parties designate senior campaign officials who can receive the appropriate security clearances and be briefed directly by non-partisan, senior officials responsible for monitoring and enforcing Canadian law, including, obviously, countering foreign interference.

We thought this was an important part of our protecting-democracy initiative. We certainly intend to continue making available to political parties and their representatives a chance to participate in this process. We think it strengthens, as some previous questions have identified, the overall public confidence in the measures the Government of Canada is taking to protect institutions.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that response.

I agree with you that it does add to the transparency and the overall confidence that Canadians have in our electoral process, and I think that's a good thing. I hope that all political parties would participate in those briefings, especially when they later are claiming that somehow our government is not serious about foreign election interference.

Mr. LeBlanc, do you intend to implement the recommendations from the Rosenberg report?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Of course we do. The answer is yes.

We did that following the report done by Jim Judd, a former director of CSIS, as well after the 2019 election.

The Prime Minister committed publicly on Monday evening...and I even had a chance to talk with the clerk yesterday and again this morning. He assigned her and me a little bit of homework: to look at, obviously, the 16 recommendations that Mr. Rosenberg made, as well as the Judd report again to look at how we evolved for the 2021 election, and also reports from the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians—some members here have sat or sit on that group—and to come back with a public report to the Prime Minister within 30 days.

On Monday we had a discussion as to whether it was 30 working days, sitting days or calendar days. We're just going to err on the side of doing it as quickly as possible, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that.

That's great to hear, because I've read the report and there are quite a few really good recommendations in there that we can benefit from.

In terms of foreign interference, I think foreign interference has been reported for over a decade. Why do you think we've only really seen action starting in 2015?

Minister LeBlanc.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, through you to Mr. Turnbull, I've said a number of times in the House of Commons that we have taken this issue seriously since we formed government.

You're right to note that previous public reports by CSIS go back over a decade, to 2013. Mr. Harper's former national security adviser was talking publicly on national television networks even a few years before, so this is not new in the last few years. It's certainly not unique to Canada, as I said.

We wanted to take a strong, robust approach, which we have continued to evolve. The Leader of the Opposition, I thought—you were in the House earlier this week—offered an interesting take when he was the minister responsible for democratic institutions. These reports were public. He had taken no action himself, as minister responsible for democratic institutions, and in sort of a smart little quip to his second question he said to me that was okay because it wasn't benefiting the Conservative Party. I thought that was a rather perverse way to look at one's public responsibilities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have two and half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I’ll come back to my question.

Minister, we are amongst ourselves, as I said earlier. I would like to know how information is exchanged between the Prime Minister and the Security and Intelligence Threats to Elections Task Force. I’d like to know how you operate to make sure I’m up to speed on what’s going on. I think things have changed and I’d like you to tell us about that.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Ms. Gaudreau, I’d like to make sure I understand what you’re saying. Are you asking how I go about my conversations with the Prime Minister?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Actually, I’d like to know what rules are in place so that you are well aware of what is going on. Do you interact with the task force and with the Prime Minister on a daily basis? How often do those interactions take place?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I take part in a lot of briefings when I'm in Ottawa, which are secret in nature. There are also briefings on the road—I'm often required to travel—or sometimes when I'm travelling with the Prime Minister. On those occasions also, there is someone who can provide information.

These briefings can be on any topic related to international affairs, what's going on elsewhere in the world. My goal as foreign minister is to know what's going on in the world to be able to conduct our diplomacy to defend our interests and protect our values. I don't need to explain that to you, of course.

In Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy, we recognize that we need to increase our understanding of China, which is clearly lacking. That's why we're investing $2.3 billion to increase our presence in the region and expand our capabilities.

We did recognize that we needed to do more with respect to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to manage foreign interference issues. That's why we invested $88 million to hire more staff.

I want to tell you that this is a challenge that the United States, the Europeans, and many countries around the world are finding out more about. I've had conversations recently with my colleague, the Australian Foreign Minister Penny Wong, to understand more about this, because Australia has had to deal with these issues in the past.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My question is going to be for Minister LeBlanc, but before I ask that question, I want to say, as a woman politician, that I remember at the very beginning of my career being asked if I was tough enough to do the job, and I think that it's absolutely devastating that this frame of reference would be used in this way.

I believe a minister has a position of power, regardless of gender identity, and that should be respected. I'm sure that internationally it is, and I think it is shameful that it was even said in this place.

I want to put that on the record.