Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2023

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

As I was saying, the character of the riding I represent is unique in Canada. There is nothing like it in any other riding. The only ways to get to the Magdalen Islands are by plane and by boat. If you want to get there by boat, you have to travel 700 kilometres, go through two provinces, and spend five hours on a ferry.

The Magdalen Islands are a very unique place. I try to get there at least four times a year, but they are never for long stays, because there are storms, hurricanes, freezing rain, snow, and so on. The people on the Magdalen Islands have seen it all. That adds a unique difficulty.

I believe that democracy is important. It is important for people to be able to have access to their member of Parliament. Adding two RCMs would therefore create a democratic deficit. As well, another thing it is important to consider is that adding two RCMs that are not in the Gaspésie administrative region would be very problematic for the Magdalen Islands. That is not what we want, in terms of democracy.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

My last question is for all four of you, since you have all talked about the importance of maintaining the representativeness of the Lower St. Lawrence region.

What would the consequences of eliminating a riding be?

How can we really represent the people of a large region with very few inhabitants?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I have sent my colleagues a picture of the territory. As we know, a picture is worth a thousand words.

If you look at the picture, you will quickly and easily understand that the present territory, which still exists and is spread over thousands of square kilometres, had seven members of Parliament in 1960. Today, however, it has only three, and yet the members have to do the same work and they are now being asked to be just as effective in representing the regions within an enormous territory.

You can certainly understand that when the time comes to represent our constituents, we do not all have access to a helicopter or a limousine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I know that other members would have liked to answer the question, but they can do so in the second round of questions.

Mr. Therrien, the floor is now yours for six minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to welcome my colleagues who are here to testify before the committee.

I am going to take 30 seconds to say that I went to my colleagues' region when the commissioners met with the public. I went to Percé, Matane and Rimouski. Unfortunately, I didn't go farther, but that must not be held against me. All that people talked about was losing a riding. Everyone was talking about it, whether they were people from the riding represented by Ms. Lebouthillier or from Mr. Blanchette-Joncas' or Ms. Michaud's riding. Everyone had the same opinion on the subject. So I was a bit surprised, since I am not hearing the same thing from everyone here, even though the public talked about nothing else.

Ms. Michaud, I have a lot of questions to ask you about how the territory is occupied and about services to the public, but I don't have a lot of speaking time.

What would the consequences be if a riding in your region were to disappear?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you for your question.

As I briefly mentioned, our fears relate to the delivery of services to the public. Where we are, it isn't like in a city. In Montreal, for example, there is an MP's office on one corner, a Service Canada office on another, and a Passport Canada office on another. Outside the urban centres, we have suffered closing after closing. Because very few federal services remain in the territory, our riding offices have become extensions of federal services.

In my riding, for example, I have four constituency offices. Of the 338 MPs in Canada, very few have four constituency offices. The reason there are so many in my riding is that I didn't want my constituents to have to drive two or three hours to come to a single office and sign the form allowing access to their personal information, in order to move their case forward with the federal government.

These kinds of considerations have to be taken into account. If we eliminate one riding, it will enlarge the other two, but their member's office budgets will not necessarily be increased. Yes, there will be a small surplus for the additional territory or population, but it will be far from sufficient to pay for an additional office, let alone an additional salary.

That has to be taken into consideration. Since 2019, we have managed to help more than 1,200 people. When people called the federal government and got no answers to their questions, or when the Service Canada office was closed—it is open once a month, we are the ones they came to see, and we are the ones who helped them.

I want to mention that this is fundamentally important in terms of the occupation of the territory. When we took that argument to the Commission, it replied that as compared to other ridings, like Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou or Kenora in Ontario, which have hundreds of square kilometres...

Fifteen thousand square miles is not very much. I have provided you with maps that show that in the ridings of Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine and Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, the population, represented by dots, is spread throughout the territory. There are a few main roads, and so we have to drive to go and meet our constituents. However, if you look at the map of the riding of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, you see that the population is primarily concentrated in Val-d'Or. A few communities of a few hundred inhabitants are spread around here and there, but the community is primarily concentrated in Val-d'Or. So there is a fundamental difference between the two.

We go out to meet our constituents. There are 56 mayors in my riding. If I want to meet one municipal council a week, it will take me more than a year to do it. Obviously, we also have to meet with other organizations in each municipality.

I am going to stop here, because I know the member has other questions to ask.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas, people who know you know that you care about your region, to put it mildly.

I would like to hear your comments on the loss of political weight that your region will suffer if you lose a federal representative.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Therrien.

I think I was fairly direct in my statement. I was also direct in my answer to Mr. Fergus' question.

Obviously, this would be an enormous loss. How can we imagine being as effective for the same territory? I understand the population is smaller, but apart from the mathematical calculation, there is a territory, there is a surface area, there are hours of driving that have to be done.

I reiterate: there were seven federal members in 1960. In 1997, that number was reduced to four in eastern Quebec. Now, the 2022 redistribution proposal wants to give us three. But there are still the same tens of thousands of kilometres to travel. I reiterate: we don't have planes, we don't have helicopters. We travel around the territory by car. Most of the time, our assistants come with us, and sometimes it is volunteers who help us do our work. Reducing the number of representatives in that territory would therefore have enormous consequences.

How are we supposed to stimulate regional development, the development of our territory, when people who are there to support the economic, social and cultural development of those territories are being taken away from us?

How can a region move forward when it is constantly being pulled backward? It's inconceivable.

To add to what I said, I will also say that the loss of geographic identity is another factor. Mr. Généreux alluded to this when he talked about the fact that the RCM of Rivière-du-Loup has been removed from the new proposed name. I don't want to start a debate about riding names, but I believe you know that when an RCM is no longer included in a redistribution proposal, its RCM name is erased, and it is difficult for that RCM to feel that it belongs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

Ms. Blaney, the floor is yours.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I thank all the members for being here today to testify. Of course, I'm a member of Parliament from British Columbia, but I represent a very rural riding. It's a huge area. People are dispersed all over it. I don't get to stay in one large community and visit and just go out occasionally. I spend a lot of time on the road travelling—on boats, on ferries and sometimes in waterplanes, depending on the situation. I really hear what you're saying about the need to not have people travel too far away and the fact that often an MP's office is like a service provider. If the MP's office isn't there, it means that people can't access services or they have to travel a long distance.

I appreciate that everyone is here to talk about the importance of this region and representation. All of you spoke about it directly. The first thing I want to get clear is this: Does everyone on this panel believe there should be four and not three ridings?

The second part of my question I will leave open to all of you. There was also mention from every person testifying here today that, looking forward, the commission should look at rural communities and how to understand them in a different way. What do you think the commission should consider? What should we be promoting, future forward, in honouring the fact that we have such a large country, with many very remote areas that have unique stories? If we don't have voices in Parliament to share those stories, it creates a weakness, not only for those regions in terms of political strength, but also for the strength of our whole country.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

If I may, I would like to start.

Thank you for your question. I see that you have a clear understanding of our rural reality.

Mr. Blanchette-Joncas described it well just now. About every ten years, our region, eastern Quebec, loses some feathers. The commissioners often use the ten-year census argument and the demographic decline reported in the regions of Quebec outside urban centres.

We know there is the provision concerning the Senate in the Constitution Act, 1867, for example, but we should perhaps consider a provision for the regions, to enable regions like ours to retain a reasonable number of votes in the House of Commons.

If we look to what has happened in recent years and what may occur, can we conclude that in ten years there will be no members left in eastern Quebec? Ten years later, will there be only one member, while there are 100 members in downtown Montreal?

Representativeness has to be considered when decisions like this are being made. Maybe, also, the entire region, rather than one riding, should be granted special status.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

If I may, I would like to point out that we learned yesterday that there are one million more Canadians in Canada. These people have mostly settled in the major centres, and not really outside those centres. I believe that in the future, the Commission will have to consider effective regional representativeness, because it will become humanly difficult to represent people properly. Ms. Blaney, you said that you also represent a rural riding. Of course, when it is possible to travel around one's riding by bicycle or even on foot, in some cases, the situation is not the same in human terms. I want to be clear: I am talking here about the human capacity to represent people properly.

Given this, all we can do today is make only minor changes to the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, because it has been passed. The Commission does not have the power to change the act. However, we, as parliamentarians, have the power to change the next version of the act. That is what your committee should be focusing on, to guarantee humanly acceptable regional representativeness.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

To add to what my colleague has just said, when we passed the most recent act, we were assured, in Quebec, that the 78 ridings would be protected. However, I don't think any of us thought that the electoral boundaries were going to change. When we look at a riding like mine, even if the population doubled in five or ten years, a member would be able to serve it properly.

However, what is being proposed now will make the job impossible for the next generation of members, because I am also thinking of them, the people who will come after us. It will require that the next MPs not have spouses or children, and travel around in a trailer or a fifth wheel, because they will never be able to be home. They will be spending their time driving around the territory. You mentioned that where you come from, there were ferries. As I said, to get to the Magdalen Islands by ferry, you have to go through two provinces: first New Brunswick, then Prince Edward Island, to get to Souris. There really are unique difficulties in the regions outside urban centres.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Blaney. It is fundamental: does the Canada Elections Act, at present, allow for real representativeness of the political weight and voice of the regions of Canada, even in Quebec?

I believe this situation clearly shows that this is not the case. It is a matter of inhabiting the territory; do we all want to live in condo buildings, or do we really want to live in the territory and develop it?

That is the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We are going to continue with Mr. Gourde, Ms. Romanado and, for a few minutes, Mr. Therrien and Ms. Blaney.

Mr. Gourde, the floor is yours for three and a half minutes to four minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank my colleagues for doing a good job of representing their ridings.

I have been lucky to visit all of the territory very often to make government announcements on behalf of Canada Economic Development. I am very familiar with your territory and your reality.

Where I come from, it was the opposite. I had to give away half of my territory to my neighbour who is sitting beside me, because our territory is the victim of its own success: it had too many people. Unfortunately, I had to give away municipalities with which I had maintained very close ties for 17 years. At the hearings, I had to suggest new boundaries to the commissioners that reflected my situation after that redistribution better.

At the hearings that were held last fall, did you propose a new map that would have allowed you to retain your territory? It really is a game of dominoes. To keep the four ridings in your region, the map of proposals has to be changed.

Did you do that exercise?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We learned about it in early August. Everyone was on vacation. In the Gaspé region and the Magdalen Islands, that is the season when people are on vacation, or it is when they are working the most. Everyone is working, particularly in the fishing and tourism industries. It was impossible to get in touch with the mayors and wardens.

I fell out of my chair when I learned that the Commission was starting its consultations in our region on September 6. It was impossible for people to get organized.

That is why we are coming back today with proposals, a Plan B. Certainly, for me, Plan A would be the status quo, but given the 78 ridings and the political decisions we made, there has to be a Plan B.

The proposed Plan B is to bring the RCM of Avignon back into Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine and so be able to respond to what the Commission is asking for in relation to electoral representation.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

If I may, I am going to add a comment. I got in touch with all the wardens in the Gaspé region and the Lower St. Lawrence and they and I were present in Gaspé on September 6 and in Matane on September 7. The solution was to keep the map as it stands.

You have to have 78 ridings in Quebec. You can arrange them as you like, but for eastern Quebec, we are proposing that the four ridings be preserved. That is what everyone asked for.

As far as community support, we are fortunate to be able to send householders to our constituents about once a month. I sent one out that arrived at homes at the beginning of the week. By a few days later, I had already received over 600 little pieces of paper that people sent me to tell me they agreed with our proposal: asking for the status quo. They cited many reasons, in particular the loss of services to the public and everything I mentioned earlier.

So Plan A is still on the table. It is still a priority for us. For all the mayors and prefects in the Gaspé region and the Lower St. Lawrence, who I know are watching us, the priority is also to ask for the status quo.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

If I may, Mr. Gourde, I want to add a comment.

We say that democracy is important. That is not just a slogan. Democracy means listening to the will of the electors whom we are representing today. Those electors have unanimously asked that the status quo be retained.

You don't think about a Plan B when you practise democracy by listening to the voice and will of the people we represent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Bravo!

Ms. Romanado, you have four minutes.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank my colleagues for their presentations. Honestly, I know this is not an easy subject for members from Quebec, given the first proposal and what has happened. I therefore congratulate you on your efforts because this issue has direct consequences for your constituents.

I am going to give you a bit of time to conclude, because it is not always easy to argue one's case in three minutes, that being the time you are allowed. So I would like to give each of you an extra minute to conclude and add a few comments before we go on to the others.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

When we talk about the elected representatives from our region, they obviously prefer Plan A, preserving the status quo in order to retain the four ridings. However, I took the time to find out what people thought about Plan B, because another option had to be presented.

Personally, I really am going to defend the boundaries of my riding, in order to represent my constituents. That is part of my responsibilities. People also supported the option I presented to them: to attach Avignon to our riding. In fact, ten years ago, Avignon was part of the riding of Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine. People told me that this felt to them like a homecoming.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Romanado.

The question is open, so we have the space needed for exploring it in depth.

I am going to try not to go back over what has already been said. We actually have pretty much exhausted certain subjects.

I can tell you that in the Bas-Saint-Laurent region, which I proudly represent, people are proud to live in their territory. They rolled up their sleeves in recent years, because the region was experiencing a loss of vitality.

One aspect that has not been mentioned today is the accelerated aging of the population. In the Lower St. Lawrence, one person out of four is aged 65 or over. In 20 years, it will be one person in three.

I represent the people of the RCM of Les Basques, where one in two people is aged 60 or over. Imagine how difficult it is to keep people in the region and develop it when there are so many people who are not in the labour force. It is reasonable for these people to be opting to retire, but how are we going stem the decline of a territory when the actors there, like us, its members of Parliament, are unable to work efficiently?

We are currently having to deal with numerous constraints. The Bas-Saint-Laurent, Gaspésie and Îles-de-la-Madeleine regions are a living laboratory. Today, those regions are targeted by electoral redistribution. I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but I guarantee you that other regions of Quebec and even from all over Canada will experience the same fate over the next few years.

The idea of occupation of the territory is therefore crucial. How do we want to develop this? Do we just want people to settle in places with no infrastructure, where there is little access to technology and local services?

It is difficult to develop at the same pace and in the same way as major urban centres do.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I am going to continue and come back to the householder I mentioned a few moments ago.

We asked people why they opposed the elimination of the riding and were asking for the status quo in eastern Quebec.

These are the reasons they gave us: the loss of services to the public; too much distance to travel to the MP's office; loss of personal interest in democracy; loss of our political weight in Ottawa; more difficulty accessing federal financial resources; and greater power in the major centres at the expense of regions outside those centres.

That is what the people where I come from told us.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I have a logical mind and I like to respect everyone's roles, including our roles as members of Parliament. We had an act to pass and we passed it.

Today, we are appearing before a committee that ordinarily makes minor rather than major changes. Certainly the status quo would have been ideal. However, knowing that the ridings on Montreal Island had to be redistributed, the commissioners did their job.

Of course we would have liked to retain the status quo in eastern Quebec, because everyone told us the same thing on that subject. Opinion was unanimous. However, I am not a dreamer. I have a logical mind, and, I would reiterate, the commissioners have a job to do. Their role is not to change the law; it is to apply it.

We would have liked the law to be different. However, being an optimist by nature, I believe we will have the next ten years to make sure the next electoral map is different and is designed on the basis of a new act, to be organized around the people who live in the regions of Canada.