Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 25th, 2023

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Can I interrupt? I feel like I need to clarify the question.

I understand what your role is, so I would assume, as a person in charge of a party, if something comes forward to you where there is concern shared about a particular candidate or their campaign, whatever that might be.... I'm wondering what your process would be in connecting during a campaign with the leader of your party and then with the candidate.

I'm not asking you to be judge and jury, but it's, “Oh, this concern has come forward. How are we going to address this?” and what the process is. I'm trying to understand what the internal process is of the party.

I hope that helps.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Yes. Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's difficult to talk about one specific process, given that there are a lot of different scenarios that it would encompass, but as a general rule, we would try to gather as much information as possible about whatever the concern is. I have seen concerns ranging from the treatment of staff to serious allegations of criminal wrongdoing. We would gather that information—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm sorry. It sounds like you need more clarity.

I'm specifically talking about the premise of the study, which is foreign interference.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Right. In that circumstance, if we had evidence of specific cases that we could point to directly, like a case where a state actor or some foreign entity was engaging inappropriately, we would act very quickly to share the information with the Prime Minister or the leader of the party. We would make sure that we're giving as full an account as possible, and if we were the ones discovering this information, we would obviously be handing that over to authorities immediately.

If something like that was being alleged, we wouldn't hesitate at all. Our duty would be to inform the appropriate authorities of what was happening, which may also include Elections Canada if, over and above national security implications, what was being alleged was an electoral act violation as well. There are several authorities that it may be appropriate to contact in that instance.

Go ahead, Azam.

[Azam Ishmael]

I would add that it all depends on the information you have and how you get it, and then you use your best judgment.

I'd say that internally, I think most campaign workers—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm sorry. I feel like I'm having a really hard time asking questions today.

I specifically said in my question if you were given a briefing, so I'm assuming it would come from the appropriate place. What is your internal process?

We are here, talking about what it is to be a person who puts their life out on the line to run for a party, and all of these interference realities are coming out and MPs don't always know. What I'm trying to understand is internally, if you got that information, how you talk to your leader, to your candidates and to that person's campaign manager about next steps. Obviously, you've received a briefing.

Hopefully, that clarifies the question.

[Azam Ishmael]

Assuming it is a briefing, that briefing would come in under the secret information regime, so we would probably not be at liberty to discuss it with a candidate or their campaign team, because they wouldn't have the proper clearance. We would only be able to discuss it with the people who have the appropriate clearance and the appropriate considerations, and as Jeremy discussed, we'd bring the leader up to speed as quickly as we could.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

If I could add to that, if it was a matter of an ongoing wrongdoing that was impacting the election at the time and we were receiving that information from the intelligence agencies, those intelligence agencies have the networks—whether it's the RCMP or Elections Canada—to take the appropriate law enforcement.... It would not be our place to say, “You should take this law enforcement step.” That would be their decision.

When we get briefings, the briefings can be on all manner of information. They could be about parties being targeted or candidates being targeted.

If there was a recommendation that some sort of threat mitigation, i.e. letting a candidate know that they were a target or something was happening in their campaign, we would not take unilateral steps on that. We would only take steps in conjunction with the appropriate intelligence authorities, because we're not in a position to decide the sensitivity of the information. Whether we burn a source or anything like that, they would need to guide us on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Blaney, do you want to ask another question? Are you okay?

Okay. We're going to go with our next rounds. We will start with Mr. Calkins.

It's now Mr. Fergus's turn.

Mr. Calkins, you have five minutes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To go back to the previous round of questions, Mr. Broadhurst, I caught the names. There were two other names. You said Azam's name. I got Braedan Caley and “somebody” Lafrance. Could you verify who that is?

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

It's Mathieu Lafrance.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Mathieu Lafrance—okay, thank you very much.

You had a briefing with the Prime Minister on the 29th, which was a day after you had the briefing where you received the information. Who else was in that room with you? Could you tell us who was there? Obviously, the Prime Minister was there if you briefed the Prime Minister. Was Katie Telford present for that briefing?

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

I am sure I can confirm I spoke to the Prime Minister alone.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

The Prime Minister alone....

You've already agreed to undertake to provide us with the name of your GTA organizer or organizers. My question, then, goes back to.... It was actually brought about by Mr. Ishmael, who just said that it would be inappropriate to discuss sensitive information with a candidate as a matter of law; yet Sam Cooper has tweeted out that the individual who is looking after the GTA ridings told the candidate in Don Valley North that they were a CSIS target.

Which Liberal party official or officials would have leaked the contents of this classified CSIS briefing to the Liberal staffer who was responsible for these GTA ridings? Who would have done that? If you were the only one in the briefing with the Prime Minister...^

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

In that circumstance, I would say the reporting was incorrect. I would say that is often the case.

There is no way that any staffer working as a field organizer in the 2019 election campaign would have had access to any information provided in the briefing.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Sources have actually said that is the case. You are saying that the CSIS sources and Mr. Cooper are incorrect.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Again, reacting only to the public reporting at this point, I can't speak to what sources they are relying upon on that front said. I can tell you that the information is incorrect.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

CSIS recommended, in the briefing, that the Liberal party should revoke the nomination of the candidate in Don Valley North.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

I'll let them speak to this as well, but it would have been inappropriate for them to make that kind of recommendation. That is not their role; it is not the role of intelligence to dictate to parties how they conduct their affairs. It is to provide the information they deemed...at any given time. Again, I'm not going to get into the content of that, but I can say from my experience working with CSIS and intelligence officials in government that they would never have taken that step.

I would point to that being perhaps another inaccurate piece of public reporting that has happened in this case.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

The entire of judgment of whether or not your candidate should have proceeded would have been a decision made completely internally by the Liberal Party of Canada.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Again, I'm not going to confirm what information was provided or about whom it was provided, but the determination of candidates is the bailiwick of the parties.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Following the briefing, were there any discussions between you, the other two individuals you've identified, or with the Prime Minister on the status of the candidate. It was two days prior to nominations closing when you first learned of this. The Prime Minister had a day to make a decision about whether or not to proceed with this candidate. It looks like that decision was made, but was that actual issue discussed? Can you tell us that?

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

I'm not going to discuss the nature of the content of the briefings—their subject matter. Again, I can only point out what is publicly reported. I think I've pointed out that there have been inaccuracies in that public reporting.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

So, you won't....

It seems odd to me that if the security intelligence service of the country came to a political party, bringing information of concern to a political party about the integrity of the nomination process prior to a nomination deadline or a candidate deadline during an election, and no decision was made....

Why wasn't that decision made? Why was the nomination of the Liberal party candidate for Don Valley North not revoked when you had time to do so?

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Again, I'm not going to discuss what the content of those briefings was. I think you are making assumptions based on reporting that has not always been accurate.